Larry Buehner

CW: Today is September 26, 2013 my name is Carolyn Wavrin and I will be interviewing Larry Buehner about his experiences as a veteran who served during the conflicts in Southeast Asia during the 1960s and 70s. Well let's start out talking about your background first of all tell us where you were born and where you grew up.

LB: Carolyn, I was born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio. Born and raised about a mile from public square on East 38th Street. Went to the same grade school on East 17th Street that my father did when he came to this country and went to St. Joe´s high in Euclid. And after high school I went to the Cleveland Institute of Art. So I was a graphic designer out of there and graduated in BFA with a-- after five years with a degree in a Bachelor of Fine Arts. I don't have any brothers and sisters I'm a spoiled rotten only child. The one thing I did have was dogs when I was a kid. Had-- used to go to my uncle's farm in western New York in Chautauqua County when I was young and they had a lot of farm dogs on the farm and they would always round about me. And I would-- you know that's how I got my first dog. I got the pick of the litter from my uncle Ray and he says you could have one so I took one home against my mother's wishes. Well my father was fine with it so we had him for 17 years. And then I got a Labrador retriever after that.

CW: Does anyone in your family have a history of military service?

LB: My father did, he served in World War II. Most of his time was in South 00:02:00Africa though in Algeria. He was a staff sergeant more or less. Not in an infantry unit or that, but he was a supply sergeant. So most of his time was in there. He served in North Carolina a while but then went to North Africa and like served in Algeria, Tunisia. We have photographs of him in there.

CW: You alluded to the fact that he came over here was he not born in the United States?

LB: He was, my grandparents were from Germany. They came here, he was born in the United States, and then they went back and they had two other children that were born in Germany, and then they came back. So my father of all the kids was the only one that was born here in the States out of five siblings.

CW: So when you were at the Cleveland Institute the draft was going on.

LB: Oh yeah.

CW: And tell us how you ended up in the U.S. Army.

LB: About my senior year, that was in 1968, I got my draft notice. Along with a bunch of other guys and that and the only thing that kept me out was I was still in school and I had another year to go. Because it was a five-year plan. A lot of the other fellows that I was with they were--it's kind of funny to think about it now--but they were-- Well the one guy--I would just keep their names out of it--but he was a good friend of ours he was a cinematographer. He, you know, got out of the draft because he rolled in poison ivy. He rolled in poison ivy when he went to the draft board draft the board asked him what this rash was and he says "oh, I get that every year" and so boom okay you're denied. I had 00:04:00two other friends that skipped to Canada. One other fellow that was in my graduating class, I think he pulled some strings because he was in the-- While he was working at a TV station in Cleveland, he was in the National Guard. So his commander there pulled some strings and he went to Germany and it served his tour in Germany. And that was about it. Out of the whole class that we had which wasn't a whole heck of a lot, you know, I was the only one to go overseas. In the army. So, but I was drafted in 1969. After I had graduated--I graduated in June--got my draft notice again, went down there in August, and they said okay you're good to go. And I was drafted into the service by September 10th, I think it was of 1969. I was down in Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

CW: How did your family react to the-- they knew that you were probably going to be drafted?

LB: I had a lot of uncles that told me just to take off and go to Canada. My father and my mother-- You know, my father was in the service so he knew what it was like and so did my mom. Being an only child we didn't talk about it too much. I had no desire or no inkling to take off. This I figured was a duty, you know, I was gonna do it. You know, when you're 18, 20 years old you don't think about the consequences then. Okay. So I was getting away from home. It was an adventure.

TP: That was actually going to be my question. Obviously you were around people. You had buddies that skipped, you had a buddy that came up with a poison ivy thing, which is pretty ingenious. I was curious to know why-- What made you stick it out? So that you kind of answered that before I even asked it.

CW: You had been actually expecting to take a job in television after.

LB: Yes, I was hired right out of school. I had an interview at Hallmark cards out of Kansas City and we went down to Kansas City to see what Hallmark was all about. The one thing we didn't like about it there was the day we went--well there's the time period that we went--we drove down there and camped I and my wife. And well no I'm getting ahead of myself. That was after I got back from the service. But I was interviewed by hallmark before that but when they found out I was draft-able they kind of pulled back. Channel 43 was a new-- It was 43 and 61 both they were kind of new and they were looking for somebody to start up. They were new in the area, in Cleveland, so you know I was hired as the art director then. So, but I never got to go there, you know, I had gotten the job but I had to tell him in two weeks I was being drafted and couldn't take it. So.

CW: So you're drafted, you're inducted into the Army. So where do you go for basic training? And how did you get into your particular MOS [Military Operational Specialty]?

LB: Okay, once you're drafted you're all you all put in a room and with all these other guys and a lot of them were-- It was like I had already had five 00:08:00years of college so I was let's see 22, 23 years old. All these other kids, who are out of high school, a lot of them were out of Ashtabula County. They were 17, 18 years old. I was like the oldest guy there. You're all sitting in chairs kind of like this all in a row and then they come in and at that time they were also drafting out of this whole bunch. They just picked who they wanted out of a hat for the Marine Corps. Nobody wanted to go under Marine Corps because they knew that was, you know, that was bad--if you were in the Marine Corps. But there were several guys out of the group that were picked to go to the Marine Corps. From Cleveland, Ohio we took a bus and everything is kind of like late at night they take you. I learned that in the service. They apparently didn't want you know where the world you are. So we got hustled into a bus and we were taken-- I arrived at Fort Campbell, Kentucky early in the morning and greeted by a drill sergeant. We were put into, you know, our platoon and stuff there and did basic training there for, gosh I don't know how many weeks twelve, sixteen weeks or whatever. And from there they were, we were given our MOS which is the military--I forget what it stands for--but that's gonna be your job in the military and I was 11 Bravo. Which that's grunt all the way. You're gonna be in the infantry. A lot of the other kids that were with me the 18 year olds they got their notice and they're looking aces. Oh wow, I'm supply, I'm this, I'm driver, I'm you know in something else and that. There were three of us out of 00:10:00our entire company, that I know of, and most of us happen to be college graduates that were 11 Bravo. I don't know where the other two went but I wound up in Fort Polk, Louisiana for advanced infantry training. I spent-- And at this time I wasn't married at the time. I and Diane were engaged. We had planned on being married when--you know with the job and all that stuff--but once I found out I was, you know, probably duty-bound to go overseas-- We had started to plan once I was in Fort Polk, Louisiana we were going to get married in December when I had a break. So you know she did all the planning, she made her own dress and all that stuff, and she was also at the Institute of Art. She was a year behind me. She printed up all the invitations and at school as part of a classroom project. And all I had to do is, you know, show up for the event. Being at Fort Polk we were, like I said advanced infantry training, it was just more involved--working with machine guns, breaking down different guns, using different weapons, different tactics and stuff like that. They also had some leadership skills because from there people would either, you know, you could go-- They would pull people out of there to become what we called "shake and bakes," which were E5. They would go to E5 sergeant school, which was at Fort Benning, Kentucky or you could re-up, I believe, for another two years from 00:12:00there and go to Officer Candidate School. Well out of Fort Polk I went to Fort Benning. Where Fort Benning was kind of like the last stop and they would tell you where you're going from there. So I was at what they call in a holding company because they would get so many people there and they would hold them until they got enough people to ship and to ship out. So I was in a holding company awaiting orders and this was, you know, I was just awaiting orders to go to Vietnam, when and where. And then these guys come in and they're looking for different people. And they said "okay" says "you know we're looking for some people to go to school here, there's a lot of schools here for different things." And the one school they were looking for, a guy comes in he says "we need people to work for"--gosh I forget what the name of the school was, but it was ground sensor school--and everybody thought he goes "aw man" he says "those are mine detectors." He says "you wear the earphones and you walk along road and, you know, look for mines and all that stuff and, you know, you're the first guy to make a mistake you're gonna get blown up, you know, and you disassemble mines and all that stuff." And he says "nah,"--you know, this was all the talk amongst all the guys that were there--you know "you don't want that, you don't want that." He says "okay, there's also Scout dog school." You know they came in with that. "Scout dog school what's that about?" Yeah, well you know you work with a dog, you walk point. And I'm going well walk point. They says "well you know that's not a good thing but the thing is you got a good dog with you." I says, yeah I says "I like dogs, I've always loved dogs." "Okay, I'll sign up for that that." That kept me in country for another 12 weeks. So I went to scout dog 00:14:00school at Fort Benning and they had a company there and what we did was we got-- There were a certain amount of German Shepherds there and which when we were there we were assigned to a dog--a German Shepherd, which at the time we were being trained how do you work the dogs and how to use the dogs. At the same time that particular dog was being trained as to how he's supposed to act and and behave. so eventually these dogs, you know, some of them were there longer than we would be would eventually go to Vietnam--if they were good enough. Thank goodness the one that I had didn't because we enacted everything as if it were overseas. We walked down trails where you'd watch how the dog alerted and you would, you know, they told you how what to look for for signs how the dog alerted. How he would you know sniff the air in a certain area if it was a really strong alert his ears would perk forward. Some would stop, different signs as to if it was an airborne scent or if it was a tripwire and you would hear things like the wind going through a tripwire. That's much more sensitive to a dog's ears than ours, they can hear they that. Their smell is 50 times better than ours, so they can they have a scent way stronger than ours they can scent it for you know many many meters. So my dog that I was, you know, we called him short legs because he was a German Shepherd but he was about the size of a beagle. He had the shortest legs and he would constantly walk into trip wires and the trip wires that they had were activated with canisters that blew off a loud noise and smoke grenades. So consequently we got covered with either 00:16:00green or red colored smoke constantly because he just did not alert on the trip wires. He was very good on enemy so-called enemy or people hiding in trees or bushes far out ahead of him, but he wasn't very good at trip wires. There were some dogs, some of the handlers that were there eventually went overseas with the dog they had trained with there because the dog had been there so many weeks and this was like they graduated with the person. Even say they were there with. And at the time I also trained with a Marine group. So that we weren't all Army at the dog handler school. There was a group of Marines there too. There's like a squad of us and the lieutenant of the Marines was in charge of our company as was the one sergeant. So.

CW: What is it about the German shepherd breed that made them candidates for this kind of work?

LB: German shepherd breed was a lot-- How do I say it? They were aggressive, they could be, they were very well-qualified as far as the terrain and that being hot different things like that. They also had overseas were-- And the sense of smell is outstanding compared to other dogs because along with the German shepherds they had Labrador retrievers or Labrador retriever mixes with like beagles, but they used them more or less for search. They called it Search 00:18:00and Destroy. Those were a different unit other than scout dog handlers, which I primarily my job was to walk point. These guys would come in and it was a four-man team and they would usually have one dog with them, which was a Labrador retriever because Labradors worked with ground scents. They were a lot more ground sensitive and when they had a blood trail. Let's say they shot an enemy and they couldn't find him in the bush. They would bring in this unit--it's a four-man unit--one guy would keep an eye on the dog and he would handle the dog, the other guy would watch anything in front of him because the handler can't watch what's in front of him and the dog too. He's watching how the dogs are gonna alert. The other two guys had machine guns so you know consequently if they're coming up on a wounded enemy, you know, they want to have as much firepower as they can because they know the enemy is wounded and he's gonna be shooting back. So you know they want to find him first, if they can. So but, the German Shepherds had very, good sensitive noses, their eyesight was outstanding, and I think that's why they were you know, they were chosen.

CW: So after you finished this training that's when he went over to Vietnam?

LB: Yes. Yeah, I got I trained. I was in the States for about 11 months. Finally got out, I got a 30-day leave and we were married. Diane and I were married in December of 69. So it was after that that I finished. I was at Fort Polk yet after we were married and then I was still-- In around Easter time I was at Fort 00:20:00Benning so from Easter time to end of July I was at Fort Benning training. And finally about the end-- the middle of July to the 10th of August. 10th of August is when I went overseas.

CW: What unit were you assigned?

LB: I was assigned to the 37th Infantry Scout dog Platoon, which was based in Bien Hoa and our front area was Phước Vĩnh. Bien Hoa was where we had the dog kennels and I was assigned there, which was just-- it was like a 45 minute hectic ride from Saigon to Bien Hoa. And we had our dog kennels there and there were probably a good, probably 20 dogs there. And the dog I was assigned was a female. She was the only female in the squad and there weren't too many females that were overseas that were chosen as dogs. If they were, they were very good, they were very good dogs. And the dog I got came from another fellow who was short and so since he was short he had less than a month and he was out of the service they gave him a rear job. And he was a mechanic working on the deuce and a half [M35 cargo truck] and all our mechanical motorized equipment there. So lieutenant gave him a job and I got his dog. And of course when you get another person's dog, you know, German Shepherds are very one-on-one you can't just go up to that dog and you know pet him like my dogs that are therapy dogs now. They would tear you up something fierce. I couldn't even, you know, just coming in 00:22:00close to the fence Cali would just jump and snarl and, you know, just want to get at me. So what I had to do was I had take some of my clothes, shirt or whatever, that I wore threw it into the fence get her used to my scent. And at this time the other fella had stopped feeding her, stopped seeing her, and it took me about two weeks. Both getting used to her and then finally, you know, after about a, you know, and as far as feeding her I would just open the gate slightly, shove the food in, and that and I'd sit there next to her so she'd you know watch and I'd watch her eat and that so she know I was going to be the handler. And eventually you know it was a one-on-one thing that I could take her out and then we became a team and started training.

And the training also went from the states but was just more intensified once we've got the Bien Hoa. Because we would go out [to] what we called the Green Line, which was-- it was the the Green Line. Beyond the Green Line was exactly that it was just jungle and a lot of rushes, tall grass. That was the line around Bien Hoa that had posts on it and even we were required to serve on night duty, to watch for enemy coming in. But we were trained beyond the green line because there was nothing like that inside the post area. So we would go to an area that we knew was kind of safe. We always took our arms, you know, with us in and that. And we would take the dogs out and we would hire little Vietnamese kids to act as decoys. And they would always, you know, we'd trade him for cigarettes or something like that give them a carton of cigarettes, give him a 00:24:00couple of packs of cigarettes to, you know, do what we wanted, and we would just have them hide in the grass or you know climb some of the bamboo trees or the palm trees. And, you know, then the sergeant would have us walk down a path and we would watch. Watch how the dog how he alerted so that's how I got used to how Cali alerted. They also put up trip wires so I'd know how she alerted that trip wires punji pits, anything else that was underground, caches that were hidden in the grass, and also, you know, distance people hiding up in trees in that, so.

CW: So, what's a punji pit.

LB: Punji pit is what they dig a hole in the ground and they take sharpened sticks of bamboo, and usually put human feces on it, that would-- So that when you walk through it, and it was disguised, matted grass and you know. I'm walking down the trails in Vietnam they were always like palm fronds and everything and that and all you'd have to do is disguise it to look like part of the trail. You'd walk through it put your foot into it your foot would go right down the bamboo was sharp enough it would go right through your foot and of course with the feces on there would poison it. So you know you are a laid up GI. So then they would have to get a helicopter in, chopper, a helicopter pad and that. So you know it just slowed everybody down.

CW: You had mentioned before that part of this was getting used to how how Cali alerted.

LB: Yes .

CW: So does that mean like every dog sort of had a distinctive way that you would have to learn how to read?

LB: Yes, exactly. Every dog was different, yep.

CW: What did she do?


LB: It was just a different twitch in her ears, that she would look up. And a 00:26:00lot of dogs we had gave really strong alerts where their ears would just perk up. Hers would get like perk up and go up (whistle) and down again. So you'd have to keep an eye on it, you know. There was a reason she wouldn't keep him up all the time but just goes [whistle] and then down, on a strong alert.

CW: So after you finish the training program then you're going out on patrols?

LB: Yes and you didn't go on patrol alone. The first guy went with you was usually another dog handler because he would introduce you to what was expected of you. And so that the lieutenants or the people that you went out with wouldn't take advantage of what they call uh so-called newbie, okay. Because I didn't know how I was supposed to react out there, you know, a lieutenant telling me okay you're gonna walk point, you're gonna do this, you're gonna, you know, if you were to get an alert just keep on going, you know, just keep on going, you know. You weren't supposed-- Our job was to give the alert, you know, to find out if there was something out there we were to give the alert and that's all our job was. Our job was not to engage in the enemy. We were just to find it. So.

CW: In practice though you became the point person with the dog, became a leader because you really had to-- It was your dog that was telling you something is out there.

LB: Yes.

CW: Would you tell us about the time when you had a rather green lieutenant with you on patrol and how you handled that?

LB: Okay, this was a later, you know, I had been in the bush quite a while then and I got (unintelligible) or combat assaulted out into the bush and we split up 00:28:00the platoon into different squads. And we had a-- what we called butter bar lieutenant. He was just a new guy. He was in charge, and usually when I walk point I'm watching the dog so the first guy I want behind me is a machine gunner. The second guy I want behind me is a radio man, because if we hit anything the radio man radios back to the CP, which is the command post. Which [the radio man] is usually in the middle of the long line that we have going through the jungle and tells them you know how we're going to act or what I have found. So we went through this area, a long skinny trail in the bamboo and that. And Cali came upon and she gave a small alert and we had known at that time when we split up we were supposed to make a big circle, but the other squads out of this platoon--I think there were four squads--and the other squads that were supposed to set up ambushes. And we were supposed to more or less make a large circle to see if we could scare up anything to go into these ambushes. We were walking down a trail and Cali gave an alert and so I stopped everything. And they said "why you stopped?" And I says "dog gave an alert, there's something up there." And so the radio man radios back and he says "dog handler says there's something up there dog gave an alert." And I hear back he says "have him move forward." You know, against my better judgment I'm standing there thinking I don't know if I want to do this. So, you know, okay we walk another 10, 12 feet Cali gives another strong alert and I says "all right" I says "there's something 00:30:00up there." I says "it's not my job to check it out." I said "you guys go check it out." At that point the radio man is saying he's hearing other people talking over his, you know, radio and they're talking about there's movement ahead in front of us. So he's putting two and two [together]. So he talks back to the lieutenant and says the dog handlers not moving ahead, but he says at the same time he says "I'm hearing things going on in front of us." So you know finally they put two and two together. They contact the other squad or whoever you know they start asking through their code and that where everybody is. And here this was one of the other squads ahead set up an ambush, and we almost walk into it. Sorry, but the dog saved us. So.

CW: It sounds as if you as the dog handler also really learned to trust that the dog was going to take you around danger.

LB: Oh, absolutely that dog and I were a team. We went everywhere together, we slept together in the hooches, and you know when I could she slept together in Bien Hoa. Although the master sergeant didn't like it, but when he wasn't around I would have my dog sleep with me in the bunk or below me in the bunk. When we were on patrol we had, you know, she would sleep on my air mattress with me. And you know eventually I wound up-- that's another story. I wound up eating the 00:32:00same food that she did, you know. So, but yeah we were a tight team you learned to trust the dog, you know. Just like she trusted me, you know. I was there for her. My job if we ever got hit was to jump on the dog and protect the dog with my life. So, because they had the Vietnamese and the NVA, North Vietnamese Army, had a bounty on dog handlers and dogs. So we were wanted because they knew how much of a good thing we were.

TP: How did that feel? Knowing you're going out on point, knowing that.

LB: Like I said, you know, it's a job. I'm there to protect the guys behind me, you know. Without us there something worse could have happened. So.

CW: Your work was really valued--

LB: Yeah.

CW: by the men. They really wanted you there.

LB: Oh yeah, they didn't know me but they knew the dog. They always know Cali and they knew the other dogs, you know, Rex and, you know, the other dogs that were in our unit. They always welcomed them, you know. They loved having the dogs with them. Because it gave them kind of a sense of relief that there was something a little more somebody better out there. That was better equipped to find the enemy than they were. So.

CW: When you were out on patrol you were also carrying your gear but you were carrying water for the dog--

LB: Oh yeah.

CW: her food anything she might need as well.

LB: Yeah, we carried-- Usually we were out for like three days and at that time we were carrying LRPs [Long Range Patrol Ration] which are freeze-dried food, which is called their LRRP--long-range reconnaissance patrol units--and-- I 00:34:00don't know if i should say this but our dog unit was not really requisitioned to have these LRPs. We would-- They would give us government C rations in the cans and that, but the dog handlers already carry, we're carrying an 80 pound sack on our back for three days in the rain and everything else. And we wanted to be as light as possible so we would take our deuce and a half and requisition our own LRPs because we knew where they stored them back in Bien Hoa. And we would take nightly trips and go and get some rations for us. So they never knew, so. And they never, you know, consequently they never came near us too because nobody wanted to get near the dogs because all they did was bark anytime you get near them. So we had freeze-dried stuff where all you do is, you know, you'd boil water. And how you boil water is everybody carried C4 [explosives] then because everybody had a-- What did they call it? I forget what they called those things now, but we used to carry a block of c4 which looked like a good-sized butter bar. And you take a little piece of C4 now this was like you know if you light it you'd blow up, but we lighted the little chunk of it and that was just like our instant firewood. [It would ] heat that water really quick. And you take the boiled water and you put it in the LRPs and you'd have, you know, they'd have like rice and beef and chicken and all that. It's a very good meal, so. But we carried that. But I carried the food for myself. For three days I usually 00:36:00carried about 17 quarts of water. Now I drank about maybe four quarts in that three day period for myself so the other 13 quarts were for the dog because she was constantly working and didn't want her to get dehydrated, so. And I carried her food which was packages of Gaines-burgers which were about the size of a good-sized hamburger and they were all sealed. So she would get two to three Gaines-burgers a day. Yeah.

TP: How was it you ended up eating her food? You mentioned that to us earlier.

LB: Uh yeah, I wound up-- That was a another unit we were out with. I was working with the, I worked with companies 1st Cav [1st Cavalry], 5th of the 7th [7th Infantry Division, 5th Battalion] 1st of the 12th [1st Battalion, 12th Infantry Regiment],

1st of the 8th [1st Battalion, 8th Infantry Regiment] different squads and platoons of those, but those were most of the unit's we worked with. And the one unit we were working with, I went out with they were putting a sniper out. So I and the sniper got pretty close. We had to put him in place in one certain area. And like I said we were out for like three days. Well because the sniper was along they failed to tell the dog handler that we were gonna probably be out for like six days, five to six days. So when you carry only food for yourself for three days and the dog for three days you know you don't expect to be double. So I made the water last plus we had iodine tablets to purify any kind of water in case we came across rivers and that. But when I found out that we were out there 00:38:00I told him, I says "you know I don't have enough food, I don't have enough food for my dog." And he said, "well you know we'll get food for the dog, we'll get food for you." Well the grunts they're not gonna share any of their food because they carry just enough, all right. I couldn't even get any kind of peanut butter crackers or anything from them. So what they did was we were out in the canopy jungle which is you know everything is cover over us. And they called back to the firebase and they said dog handler needs dog food, needs food for him, and so, you know, after waiting I don't know how many hours, a few hours or whatever a chopper comes by and flies over the top of it and you know drops a package. So patrol goes out, they find a package, they come back, and I told him I only gonna need Gaines-burgers for three days. They come back with a case of Gaines-burgers, which is like I don't know 36 burgers in a case, nothing else. So we-- and of course, you know, okay I take how many days we're gonna be out three more days, okay. I take nine to ten out for dog. Okay, nothing else, I gotta eat Gaines-burgers. So, I gotta eat Gaines-burgers and they're not that bad. They're a little gritty, but you know they're still moist. And we can't leave anything for the enemy. So we either have to destroy it or bury it. So we had to bury the rest of the Gaines burgers, you know, so the enemy wouldn't find it and use it. So.

CW: So when you would go out on patrol you were sharing the same kind of conditions that the other men did.

LB: Yes.

CW: Can you describe what that was like? Where did you sleep? What about the temperature?

LB: Well I wasn't-- I shared the same conditions, but you gotta remember that I 00:40:00was in there for three days. Probably back in Bien Hoa--because they flew me out--and I was back there for four days then I would go back for three days. So it was a three days in and out, back four days. The grunts were out. They were out for like thirty to sixty days at a time. So everything that they needed they carried on their back. Fifty caliber ammo can carried all their personal possessions that they needed--writing tablet, writing stuff, shaving equipment, any kind of personal pictures, a camera, or anything else they had that was, you know, their's. Everything else they carried was ammunition, and everybody carried ammunition for the machine gunner, you know. Whether you used it or not because they had it, you know. Everybody had-- He couldn't carry enough munitions for himself, but so everybody carried practically a bandolier for the machine gunner. Sleeping conditions, I would usually sleep in the command post when I wasn't walking point. So I was kind of like in the center along with the whoever was in charge, along with the radio man, and that. And I would set up my air mattress. And a lot of the grunts didn't have air mattresses, because they would only get them when they went back to the fire base or when they went back to wherever their head unit was. Because out there there were army ants and fire ants and all kinds of other little critters that live in the jungle along with elephants, tigers. What they called? I forget what the heck they called it but they had this one bamboo snake. It was green as all get-out--bamboo vipers--they 00:42:00were only six-eight inches long, but they did a lot of damage. And they were poisonous and you could die from them. And so there were those things that you had to be wary of, and that. But when you had an air mattress consequently the army ants, and that, were the grunt on there for thirty days. He's sweating and all that stuff accumulating a lot of salt. The ants would get to the salt they chew right through rubber and pretty soon you're laying on the ground. So the heck with the air mattress, you know. All it is now is it's a shield. And in rainy season you got wet because it rained all the time. Then you got to worry about leeches because you'd be walking, you didn't even have to walk through water because the leeches would just fall down out of the trees. And you'd have to inspect yourself every night or twice during the day for leeches on you. I had to check it with the dog because leeches would go up her nose or in her ears, and that, so I'd have to pull the leeches out. And you carry mosquito repellent which is like the only thing that would repel the leeches. You just put a drop on the leech and he would like loosen up so you just yank him off the dog and yourself. We slept like I said in the CP [Command Post]. I'd blow up my air mattress then we had a rain poncho, which we never used except to keep the rain off us at night. And we'd stretched the rain poncho out and tie it to the nearest four bamboo trees and that would be shelter for us and we were probably only less than 10 to 11 inches off the ground. Because you wanted to give it a low field of fire. You want to be as low as possible. Nobody ever stood up except to get up and go to your post at night. And even I as a dog handler was-- 00:44:00everybody once you were out in the bush and you were required to pull guard duty. And even I was--even though I had a dog, sometimes it depends on the lieutenant if they had enough guys in the platoon they didn't need it--everybody would pull an hour's guard duty. If they didn't have enough guys during that shift and I as a dog handler would have to pull guard duty also. So they'd have to wake me up which was always had to be careful because the first thing you'd hear was GRRRR. Cali was right there, anybody who approached she growled. So I just tell her to be quiet, and that. So she and I would go to guard duty and, which was usually on the outside of the perimeter. And we'd have, you know, we'd have claymore mines set up and I'd have a walkie-talkie with me and I'd wait for the next guy after my hour. Watch, wait for the next guy to come through and spell me. But other than that, you know, we walked and did everything that the the grunts did, you know. I ate the same food that they had. So.

CW: What was the reason for the three days out four days back cycle?

LB: That was just for the dog. It was more or less because the dog is constantly working 24 hours while she's out there, as am I. When were walking point you know it takes a lot out of you. There's a lot of stress in that involved so you know when we went back it was more or less we rested for a day with the dog. And especially, you know, her walking all the time, and that, and the other dogs. And then we would still go retraining, you know. After that we would go out in the morning beyond the green line just like I did at the beginning and we go through the same thing. So that the dog was always in training. Because every 00:46:00time he went out you would not always find something, okay. So, but you have to give, you know, once we were in the back you always have to refresh her. And, you know, okay you did a good job, atta girl, good girl, you know. So that she just wouldn't be taken for granted or that.

TP: What was it like? Because, you know, some of the veterans we've talked to talk about how the whole--from front to back--can be kind of a lonely experience. A lot of the time and with you, you know, you're going out with units you're not-- you haven't been with these guys, you don't know a lot of these guys. What was it like having Cali? What did that become?

LB: Oh, bringing the dog to the unit?

TP: For you I guess. Just, because you and her were always together.

LB: Yes.

TP: But other than her and maybe some of your fellow dog-handlers you didn't-- there wasn't a regular group of guys you were with. You weren't assigned to one platoon.

LB: No. We worked with various platoons and various companies. And they always welcomed us, you know. I was fine with them. They would always talk to me. I got to know a lot of the-- When I was back in the CP in the evening, and that, I got to know a lot of the medics and talk to them. Ask them how they got involved and stuff like that, you know. Because medics they were another unit that, you know, these guys were a lot, you know, some of them I understand were conscientious objectors. But they still went over there, they carried a handgun, and that was it, you know. If they had to use it but they were just there for medic, you know. And I was fine. Some of the unit's we went back I would, you know--in that time period that I was there from August to February--there were some units that I went back like three four times. So we knew some of the guys. Not necessarily 00:48:00by name, but we knew them by sight, you know. So, but everybody like I say always knew Cali and they always welcomed her, they were glad to see her. Because the other thing that the German Shepherds that we had always reminded them of home. They would see us and "oh man, I got a dog at home." "Oh yeah?" I got, you know, "can I pet your dog?" "Yeah pet the dog, go ahead." You know as long as she wasn't wearing her harness, which was a leather harness that when we walked point she knew that was business, other than that she wore collar and I had a lead, six foot lead. And we just walk around like anybody in the, you know, back in the world or back in the city would walk their dog, you know. But they could pet the dog and that, but when she was working she it was just her and I and nobody else bothered her.

CW: Now you were doing this work for about seven months.

LB: Yeah.

CW: What happened to change what you were doing in the service?

LB: Then back in January and February of 1971 everybody-- They were giving-- Nixon was pulling a lot of people out they were trying to get the South Vietnamese more involved and so they were down sizing a lot of the units. And so not knowing where I was gonna go-- I had, back in-- when I was at Fort Benning, going back now, being a graduate from Cleveland Institute of Art I always carried a bunch of slides of my work. I was an illustrator. I was also a photographer. Somebody had told me that the army at that time had a unit where they--it was part of the like Army Historical Society--where they would record 00:50:00different wars, different things. And they would send people out and then they would have artists create paintings of these things, and they did it in Hawaii. I'm going oh that sounds like a cool deal man. So I went around when I was at Fort Benning, on my off time, any time I could, to go to different people to, you know, try to get a secondary MOS. Because my primary MOS was 11 Bravo, which means I'm a grunt all the way, you know. And I don't know what, you know, I was even just a scout dog handler. I was still 11 Bravo. If I ever lost a dog I would get another dog but I'm still 11 Bravo. If they downsized and didn't need scout dogs anymore I'm in a regular infantry platoon because that's what my MOS was. So I tried to get a secondary MOS and the secondary MOS I finally got was combat photographer. I'm going, okay combat photographer can't be that bad. Alright I'm, you know, I'm a photographer. So I got a combat photographer secondary MOS and I don't know if I got that because I knew I was deserving of it, because of my background, but maybe somebody just changed it so I wouldn't bother anybody back at Fort Benning anymore. So, but it came to fruition when in February they were looking for-- I had heard that they were downsizing and a lot of guys they were sending up north, because we worked primarily in the southern area of Vietnam. And we worked, like I said, we worked our main area was Bien Hoa our forward area was Phước Vĩnh. From Phước Vĩnh we would be helicoptered to various fire bases off of which we went with the different units 00:52:00that were on the fire bases. And, you know, I went, let's see where's my train of thought going. A lot of guys were going up north and they hadn't gotten any papers yet. But, so I went my secondary MOS went to the 1st Cav [ 1st Cavalry] Public Information Office, which was PIO which-- There's a first administration Cav unit and talked to the major there, gave my background and all that stuff. And he said "well I can't promise you anything but I'll do what I can when the time comes." So I kept seeing him, you know, because I made some of the acquaintances with the photographers there and the other fellows that were there and that. And finally when it came to and everybody got their orders. And some of the guys because of-- They were splitting up if they were close enough. At that time if you had I think less than 60 days left in country you were just going back home, back to the United States, but if you had anything more than that you'd have to stay. So those guys got put in different units and so I went to the PIO unit. I was surprised to get that but I was very happy. So I was a combat photographer, but at the same time when they downsize all these units the guys go home or the guys get transferred, but then there are those guys that aren't going home or like in my situation I went to another unit or a different company to do a different job. My dog got taken to a, let's say, holding company 00:54:00where all these other dogs were. It wasn't taken to another scout dog platoon, but it was taken to another area where there were probably a couple hundred dogs. And you got to understand not all of them-- In our rear area there were no trees and no, you know, none of this stuff. It was just bare ground. And when it's 100 degrees or 105 degrees everything is baking out there, and you're out in the open sun. My dog was put on a concrete pad. It had a piece of galvanized sheet metal probably about six foot long and just as, you know, it's like a culvert cut in half and that was the shade area for her. And she was put on a chain and then there was a water bowl. And that's where Cali wound up and I went to go see her and that's where a lot of the other dogs that the guys, you know friends of mine that went to other units or that, that's where their dogs wound up. Where they-- If they were going home. All their dogs were there and when I got there a lot of dogs were-- There's nobody there to watch the dogs all the time. So consequently when you have a dog on a chain, a dog is running back and forth it's gonna knock its water dish over. A lot of dogs those dishes are over. Under the hot sun. Nobody's checking them all the time. The dogs get dehydrated and their tongue swells up and they get what they call we used to call red tongue. It just gets excessively large. I don't know what happened with my dog. They told us that your dog was going to be retrained and repatriated and the South Vietnamese army was going to take it over and they were gonna train with 00:56:00your dogs. Well we knew this was an impossibility because the thing was that even going through from-- Going through Saigon or going from Bien Hoa to Phước Vĩnh, our forward area, we would have to go through Saigon sometimes, or some other villages. We would ride in the back end of a deuce and a half probably six to eight guys along with their dogs in the open deuce and a half. When going through these villages we'd stop and you know everything's not always, you know, straight through. We'd stop and at that time the villagers would come up and they try to sell, you know, a pineapple or other things that were you know wrapped in bamboo shoots. And try to sell it to the GIs to eat or, you know, other things, and that. The dogs would go nuts. They just didn't care for the Vietnamese. We also trained with the Vietnamese, as you know. We trained with them beyond the green line, like I said. We used the kids as--I don't know if you'd call them bait--but we used them as things for the dogs to alert on. So the dogs knew the smell of the Vietnamese. Consequently they didn't like the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese were afraid of our dogs, because they eat their dogs before they ever get to that size. It was funny because we had in our platoon, we had a dog probably about so high [12 inches]. He was wall-eyed. We called him zero. He was our mascot. We had-- Our dog platoon had a mascot and this dog would wander all over the place, you know, and all the other dogs, scout dogs, were always had in their kennels, but this dog had the run of the whole place. 00:58:00So it was kind of an anomaly that the scout dog handlers had a had a mascot, but you know the size of the dog was only about so high, it would be like the size of a 16 week old puppy, you know. And they would always eat their dogs. Consequently, I never saw cat while over in Vietnam either, so I don't know what. I don't know if they had cats or they eat those too, but I never did see a cat while I was there. But they were deathly afraid of our dogs, because the dogs were always-- Gnashed their teeth, barked, tried to get at them, and everything. So you know they didn't want anything to do with them. So we knew that it was going to be like an impossibility for a South Vietnamese guy to all of a sudden train with our dogs you know. And then even if he ever did, how is he ever gonna use our dog to find other Vietnamese, you know? So I never did know what happened to Cali. I saw her probably as long as I could, for a couple weeks and that and that was it. So.

CW: It must have been hard to say goodbye to her.

LB: Yeah, yeah, you know, I think of her quite often. Yeah, you would she uh-- she saved my life so you don't forget anything like that. And the other thing we did like, you know, I brought you a sample of-- We knew, the dog handlers knew how good these dogs were way back in October/November of 70 when I was there. 01:00:00And a group of us got together and we wrote a congressman in California and that's why I have a copy of the Congressional Record there for you. Because we wrote him to see if he could submit a bill that would bring these war dogs back to the United States. Either with their handlers or with another handler when their time was up. Because the army--they were chattel--the army never brought any tanks or anything else back that they left over in Vietnam. They left them there, you know. And this was war chattel, you know. So we wrote to congressmen and that's a copy of the bill that he proposed in the congressional record. Our names from our dog unit are in there. Of course they misspelled mine, which is no surprise. So, but nothing ever came of it so, you know, I was glad to hear that now. I don't know when it happened but you know we've-- I'm part of the Vietnam Veterans Dog Handlers Association I'm a member of that. And it was that organization that was important, showing the importance of what these dogs were that had an influence in raising a monument to these dogs. Not just Scout dogs, but, you know, the other dogs like the search dogs also, that they had. Along 01:02:00with the Doberman pinschers that were guard dogs, you know. All the dogs, it's a monument to all the dogs that were used overseas in whatever venue, you know. And it was important for us that people know this and, you know, we petitioned a long time ago to have a stamp. I mean they got stamps of Bugs Bunny and Pluto and everything else. But you didn't... You couldn't have a stamp from the US Post Office with war dogs. But they finally got one of those, many years ago. It was, you know, guys probably about four or five years ago I purchased a stamp and, you know. But we're still-- The importance-- And it was nice to know that the government finally changed their mind on the dogs. That the dogs now currently serving in Afghanistan and the other places overseas that now can come back either with their handler. Or if they come back to the states they can be adopted by another handler or a former dog handler that knows what the dogs have gone through and what they've been through and what's required of them. So it was a great to hear that. They're not just getting rid of them.

CW: Where is the monument?

LB: There's one in Washington DC. There's another one, there's several of them, there's one in Pennsylvania and there's currently one going to be put up in I think San Antonio, Texas this October, I believe to war dogs. And there's a the first one I think went out in California, which was the first one, so. But there's a lot of, you know, little local locales that put up a war dog ones too. 01:04:00You know, like over and Cleveland, the west side of Cleveland, there's a war dog memorial to a little dog from World War II. That was somebody's pet then but he also was a company dog, you know. So one of his heroic things was that when they were on an island out in the Pacific they had to, and they were under siege, they had to run a wire from one side to this airport to the other side and they had no way to get it and finally they gave the dog telephone wire. And he ran it underneath the airport or the air the surface in a pipe and ran it, I don't know how many, hundreds of yards to the other side. So they could hook up communications and stuff like that. So, you know, it was things like that.

CW: Well let's jump ahead in time a little bit. You were talking about your relationship with dogs and how you were, I believe one time you said that you made a vow to yourself that if you got out go this situation, Vietnam that you would do what you could to help other GIs and dogs play a role in what you're doing.

LB: Yeah, like I said you know coming-- When we visited, well when we worked in Vietnam coming to the different units. The guys were always happy to see the dog because like I said it was it reminded of a back home, dogs that they had back home or just reminded them of dogs, especially German shepherds. And so I made a vow to myself if I ever get out of this alive I was going to give back what I could to the GIs. And so, you know, I didn't have the opportunity to do that 01:06:00while I was working. But three years ago when I was let go from my place of employment. I looked into my current dogs being therapy dogs. And so we went through training, which was more or less basic to advanced basic training for dogs. And with the therapy dogs we visit, you know, I go every week to the Lewis B. Stokes Veterans Administration Veterans Hospital in Cleveland. I go every Thursday and we work about three hours and we visit the wards from fifth floor, fourth floor, third floor and down in the basement. We visit the the people there and it takes about two and a half to three hours. We visit everybody that's, you know usually, the fifth, fourth, and third floor those guys are ambulatory and they're there for some reason or another. And some of the guys are there for months. There are World War II, Korea veterans, Vietnam veterans. A lot of the older fellows they're, you know, they're glad to see my dog. Even if it is, you know, a Portuguese water dog. And the first thing they ask is "Wow, nice sheepdog." I've go "nah, nah, that's a Portuguese water dog." "Oh," and then you know we start a conversation and it's the easy thing to conversation, you know, when you have a dog because. Would you liked to-- And usually I'm escorted with a recreation therapist and he'll either knock on the door or ask the gentleman inside. And he says "so-and-so we have a therapy dog today, would you like to see the dog?" You know. And they either go "no not 01:08:00now," or "yeah," you know they're very enthusiastic. "Sure bring them in," you know. And of course they all know Roscoe and Ziva, and that. We've been going there now for a couple-- oh little over a year, a year and a half. And so they visit and they pet them and, you know, we talk about dogs and their dogs that they left at home or whatever, and when they're going home and stuff and that. You know, we go downstairs in the basement area is where they have the gentleman who usually bedridden or in wheelchairs. The only way they can move or anything it's usually with, you know, they mainly just talk. They can't move their arms or their legs so Roscoe usually, you know, we put a-- if they're in a bed we'll put our chair next to the bed Roscoe or Ziva jumps up on the chair so it's a more or less eye to eye contact with them. When the people are in a wheelchair Roscoe would go up to him and he'll do an about-face give him his back to him so he can get a back scratch and stuff like that. And usually they go well "I want to see your eyes" so, you know, you have to turn around. And they want to look at his head and face and, you know. And usually I leave we have what we call baseball cards, that the-- I'm a member of Pet Partners, which is a dog therapy group that I'm certified through. And they allow us to give out pictures of our dogs, which gives a picture of the dog on the front and on the back side is usually a description of what kind of dog it is, what our favorite things to do are, or our favorite snacks, or what did we do in off time, and stuff like that. So it's an-- it's like reading a baseball card. So I usually hand those out to the guys their first time I see them. So they have a, you know, if they'll see 01:10:00Roscoe one week you know I'll bring his. Even the next week, and I usually alternate them and so they'll have pictures of Ziva and Roscoe. And now I have one of their puppies, Red, is qualified now as a therapy dog and you know we're waiting his final okay from Pet Partners that he can go out. But he's been tested and passed so we're just waiting final authorization and he'll be going out for visiting.

But, and I also work with schools, autistic kids. We go to there's a Middlefield, Ohio there's a Middlefield School District we'll work with the children and the younger adults in that school with the dogs. So, haven't been-- I've been to nursing homes. When my father-in-law was in the nursing home we took Roscoe to there also, you know. So he's been in nursing homes. They are very well-behaved.

CW: I'm sure very welcome.

LB: Oh yeah.

TP: What's it like 40 years after you made that promise to yourself to be fulfilled in that?

CW: Oh, feels great, feels great especially-- I've talked to guys that are in tears that, you know, they thank me. "Thanks for bringing your dog," now know. This is, you know, it's still reminding him like back home because some of the guys have been at Louis B. Stokes for months. There was a few guys there that I started in-- they were almost there twelve months, that I knew several of them, you know. I didn't know them by name except their last name, but I had seen them 01:12:00every week, you know, depending on their, you know, their problem and that. Who they had to see that they would be there that long so, you know, it's not a big turnover. We took a week off or no we took like six weeks off recently. My other dog Eva, she had puppies. So we finally found good homes form them back in late August, and then or, no early August. And my youngest son had our first grandchild born and so we took like six weeks off. So I called them and said you won't see us for six weeks or so at the hospital. So it was like time off and when I went back last week there were like new guys finally that had come through that, you know. "Would you like to see Roscoe?" "Who's Roscoe?" Oh wow, I haven't heard that in a long time. "Okay sure." Okay so we'll bring Roscoe. When I get home from this vacation we'll bring Ziva down there and hopefully Red will be okay by then. So we'll have three of them alternating. But yeah it feels great. A lot and, you know, a lot of guys there they are very appreciative. And at the same time I've always been a history buff. I love reading history books on the American Indian and how they were, you know, treated by the by the government. And to listen to some of the stories that these the World War two vets have. And, you know, I met one guy who was on the-- What's the boat that's out there in Hawaii that sunk?

CW: Oh is that the Arizona?

LB: The Arizona. He was on the bridge of the Arizona. Well he was down below he said and he asked his supervisor whoever it was if he could head-- And he was on 01:14:00that morning if he could have a smoke. He says, "yeah we'll cover for you, go up topside you can have a smoke." He was on the bridge at the time having a smoke when the bomb hit the Arizona. He got saved. He was in tears telling me the story. His-- The guy who was in charge three flights below hello deck. He never saw him again. They never made it out. But because he was smoking, bad sin that it is, that saved him. So yeah. So and it's interesting, you know, an interview with a dog opens up a lot of things to some of these GIs. They open up and they talk to you, you know, it's not just somebody coming by order or the recreational therapists coming by saying, "hey how you doing, what do you think, how you doing today, you feeling okay," you know. If they had a dog all of a sudden I have something in common with him, you know. Yeah, there's a common bond there. So. Every chance to open up.

CW: Let's go back in time again to your other work in Vietnam as the photographer. Can you talk a little bit about the contrast between what you saw in that job versus what you were doing out walking point with Cali?

LB: Okay, my job as a combat photographer. I worked in the darkroom along with doing whatever combat assignment--well it really wasn't combat per se--I didn't go out with a unit to photograph firefights or anything like that. I was with 01:16:00the Public Information Office and there's a lot of things in the rear area that generals and other people do. There's a lot of awards that have to be done and somebody has to record this. So there were like three or four of us photographers that usually were busy every day doing something around the platoon or around the area in Phước Vĩnh, which was where I was working now or we would go to a firebase to do something. And if a general was out there, you know, meeting with a dignitary from the South Vietnamese Army we were there or if certain infantrymen were back and they were getting awards for meritorious service they had that done, you know. I was out there during the daytime using, you know, taking pictures. A lot of times they had awards done at night which is kind of like I saw how the other half lived because when you're a grunt you're a grunt--you're dirty, you're wet, you're never out of you know you're always in the jungle, you live from day to day, everything you carry on your back, your meals you eat out of a tin can, your putting iodine tablets into water. Back to the rear area, now I was associated with the generals. I had to-- It was almost like being in the United States. Because, or what the GIs called "back in the world." Because now you had to wear clean khakis, your shoes had to be spit 01:18:00shined, you had to look good, boonie caps were allowed back in the rear area. I wore a boonie cap, but on top of it I had a peace symbol sewn on it. The only time you could see it is if you were taller than me or if I had my hat off and it had a tie and it dangled on the backside. Nobody ever gave any thought to it except you know one colonel sometime, but because by that time I was, you know, and he told me the next time he sees me I better have that off. Well the general at that time said, you know, leave him alone. So I got a reprieve from the general because I used to do a lot of the shots and he saw me all the time there. You're supposed to be kind of like inconspicuous, but at the same time when you're shooting a flash and all that stuff you can't be too inconspicuous as a photographer. But I covered a lot of his shots when they would give awards and at the generals mess. And the general's mess was in the rear area for the 1st Cav. They would meet usually every evening and the general would pull a unit officer out of the line and have him accompany the general for the day. He would fly around in the general's helicopter and, you know, he would kind of get like a day off--a reprieve from being out in the bush--and at the end of the evening he would dine at the generals mess and get an award. And when the time came to 01:20:00get to the award that was my job to come out [click], take a picture of he and the general, and then walk off. Well, you know, I would always get there ahead of time because, you know, the generals mess was it was a very nice place. It was like you walk into a restaurant, but the restaurant is in a, you know, is in a large canvas tent. The general's mess had 1st Cav plates. They were red and gold, gold rimmed, had the 1st Cav emblem on the front or right on the center. They had a piano player playing. They would have an open bar. So it was like, you know, everybody was kicked back and everybody was back in the world. It was always my idea, says "wow, I wish the grunts could see this now they wouldn't believe it," you know. And they would always have steak, was always served, you know. We never saw steak in the field. That was always a dream, you know, we had pork and mothers and I won't tell you what the mothers meant. So, but you know, that wasn't one of my jobs along with a few of the other guys and that.

The only one time that I felt I was a combat photographer was that the lieutenant that we had in charge of our PIO unit in front of the photographers. And we had photographers and illustrators and I was lucky I was both I was an illustrator and a photographer. And he sent us out on some assignments and this one assignment came up and he says "Buehner I want you to go out. This general is supposed to be flying out. They've found a cachet where the NVA were dug in and there's bunkers there and the general is going to come down." He, you know, 01:22:00didn't have anything to do with it other than that his job was to or he wanted to come down and just walk amongst the captured material, the bunkers and all this stuff. So I got flown out in a loach which is just a smaller helicopter ahead of him, waiting in the CP unit. And while I was waiting there was still heavy fire and rash birds, which we called, you know, other jet fighters were coming in and dropping 800-pound bombs and some other type of ordnance still on this hill trying to get the bunkers cleared. What they found out was, you know, and this unit that I was with they had walked up this hill come into a nest of NVA bunkers and had been driven back. And all they wanted to do was fight far enough so that they could get their wounded and dead out. And so they can-- The general didn't know this and so what they did was they cancelled the generals trip out there because it was still an active live-fire zone. And so I was there at a CP unit and said, you know, at one point it came up. I said, "you know can you get another bird in here to get me out since the general is not gonna be here?" He says, "no." He says, "we're not taking a chance of bringing a bird in here." He says "you know, we're not bringing any birds in to you no exit you. You're gonna have to be here." "Well," I says, "I've got no arm other than my camera, I got no food, I got nothing, if we're gonna stay tonight." You know, it's getting late in the afternoon it was like five-six o'clock it's getting later and that I'd been out there since early afternoon awaiting the general. 01:24:00And so at that point they said, "you know, if we're overrun," the medic gave me is forty-five sidearm. So I'm going to okay, whoop-dee-doo, now I got a 45. My only way to get out of there was they finally had advanced far enough that they got one of their-- They found one of their countrymen, their arms. He was dead and they brought him back in a body bag. And we marched him out to an area where it was clear enough that a helicopter could come by. And that's the only way I got out was with a couple of wounded guys and the body bag. Other than that I would have been out there for I don't know how long. So, but the general never did-- I never was reassigned to the shot. I don't know if the general ever came out there again or you know the person in charge, but that was it. That was the closest I ever been in a combat zone with a camera. So.

TP: Did you take any picture while you were there?

LB: No. There's a-- the only photo I have is one that's etched in my mind. Because I felt it was kind of disrespectful of sorts because the line going 01:26:00through the jungle of the of the guys carrying their comrade in the body bag. With a pole going through each one and they got the pole on their sides. The sunlight coming from the back side of it would have made such a nice photograph and that but it's-- I never did raise my camera to take the picture because, you know, I just felt it was, you know, disrespectful. But I'll never forget it. No.

CW: Did you develop your film in a tent, or how did that work?

LB: We, yeah, in a-- We had a physical building that was wood constructed and it was a dark room. So there, you know, not everything was tents out there. There were some buildings that were built. And the darkroom assistant was a young fella from Iowa and he was the one who was in charge of the darkroom. But I also would develop film when needed because I had that background and a college degree and stuff like that. So that's one other thing I brought with me back to the states is the negatives that I took. I brought them back with me. Currently I don't have a way to photograph them, or I develop them or print them, I should say. I don't have access to a black-and-white printer, but they're all black and white negatives. When I was working with the dog platoon I carried a small little camera that I had gotten as a anniversary present I believe or a wedding present. And I used that and I took a lot of slides. So I've got a lot of slides of me into bush and, you know ,different things that we did back in the platoon. You know, when you're back in the platoon we had a plywood-- You know, we would relax as much as possible. In the back we had an open, we had our own bar that we made out of plywood. We had a wooden building that was a wood structure. We 01:28:00had a recreation room, which you know we built a bar there and we would buy our own, you know, beverages to put in there. Had an icebox and that and so, you know, when we were back in the rear area for those four or five days. We would have-- We also had a projector that we could get movies and, you know, have a movie night and that. Since I knew about that I was usually projectionists. So, you know, that was my job to run the projector, one of them. So, you know, we had barbecues with the guys there and that, you know. So we tried to make it as tolerable as possible while we were there. You know, everybody in their own little area and we were in quonset huts. Our individual ones in bunks and we tried to make our own personal areas as personable as possible, decorated and that.

CW: Let's move on to your life after Vietnam and when you left Vietnam. What happened next? You were already married. Where did you live after that?

LB: When I came back from Vietnam my wife was-- Since she was already-- She had graduated from the Institute of art and she had taken a job at the Cleveland Institute of Art. let's see the Horton Museum? Oh no. She was working at the Canton Museum of Art in the darkroom there. And we lived on Hillcrest Boulevard in Cleveland Heights. So I came back to Hillcrest and it was a third floor apartment. And we were probably there together about a month because I still had 01:30:00my dog. I left my dog, I had a Labrador retriever, when I left and I left him with my parents who lived still in the house in downtown Cleveland. And he was chunky because he sat at my father's knee eating Jelly Donuts. So I had a porky little Labrador retriever, which I was more than happy to exercise. So we've rented a-- We put an ad in a newspaper in Geauga County looking for a house to rent. And we found, you know, somebody rented us a house for $100 a month back in 1972. And we lived on five acres in a two-bedroom home with a full basement in the middle of an apple orchard. So I got my dog back and we exercised. I went hunting and stuff like that and, you know, so it was more or less a, you know, a nice life. I was unemployed because at that time since, you know, I had a portfolio but I was out of the job process for two years. Hadn't done that much illustrating. Did photography and that so my first job I got was with a Bill Root Studios in downtown Cleveland, working as a photo technician. Developing film and that for him both color and black-and-white. That lasted about two months. When he couldn't, you know, jobs weren't coming in that well so he couldn't afford to have a assistant anymore. Then I got hooked up and, you know, 01:32:00it's always contacts that you have. So we had one of Diane's roommates was working at the Cleveland Institute of Art and somebody had called in to the Alumni office looking for somebody that could-- Oh they were looking for somebody to work in there-- for their company, but he had to do, I forget. Lazy Lucy had to know how to use a lazy lucy and do this and do that and everything and that. So, you know, Dianne's roommate called me then and said this job is available can you do it? I'm going what in the world is a lazy lucy? And she said "oh, you know, I got no problem you should be able to handle it." So I go "yeah, ok." So I went there and got the job as an artist putting together news folios for Lockie Lee Dairy which was also the northeast convenient Food Mart. So we had like a hundred and some-odd stores that the advertising agency, Gaffney Advertising, was in charge of. And their main squeeze was Lockie Lee Dairy. And Lockie Lee Dairy supplied all the dairy stuff for convenient Food Marts in Northeast Ohio. And so I had to put a weekly flyer together using this so called lazy lucy, which was nothing but a type machine that you just, you know, you put in a folio of type it was a negative. It was like creating-- Like doing a-- Like a darkroom, but not being in the dark. Because you all your chemicals and everything you'd place. You'd look through a screen. You'd see the line up the letters and space them correctly. Hit the buttons they would expose 01:34:00it. You'd move it forward so that unexposed film would go here, the exposed film would come out. And, you know, you'd use-- That was like an early type machine, which they now, you know, you can just [dut, dut, dut] and it's typed. But this was the old earlier fashion. It was a lazy lucy. So I did that for several years, probably five, no five, yeah five years. No I wasn't even sure, probably about three years because we had our first son was born then, Matthew. And we were working on our second and then the the fellow in charge, the so-called CEO, who was a younger guy than me came and said "Larry." He said "I'm going to have to let you go." I go "what, why?" "You have lost your talent." I go, "really, okay." And that was right around Easter. So I was unemployed so I went to a advertising-- It was a headhunter in downtown Cleveland that hired or sought out artists. Because she had a plethora of jobs that would come in they would go to her. And so I went to this woman, gave her my portfolio and all that stuff, and they said they would work on it. Two weeks later I had a job. I got hired good Friday. I went for my interview and it was with a-- And when the woman at the agency downtown said "Larry we got a job for you, possibly." She says, "it's with a company called Leichtung Tools." I'm going, "really?" Because my 01:36:00application well is kind of my avocation when I was in high school and that and in college I loved woodworking. This was a woodworkers tool magazine. They had woodworking tools made in Germany, Sweden. They had the things you don't even see in in the States, and that. And it was a beautiful catalog, well photographed and illustrated, and that. They said they're looking for somebody to work on the catalog. I go wow, that'd be great. And they said, okay. They set me up with the interview. It was Good Friday. Took my portfolio, which was a huge portfolio. And I, when I was in college, I did a lot of hunting. I did a lot of fishing. So consequently a lot of my work was nature oriented. I painted a lot of deer. In fact at the Cleveland Institute of Art, amongst my other people I was known as squirrel. Because that was my nickname. Because that's what I painted. Other people would come in and either paint the model who was there. In our advanced painting class they would usually have a model that you could paint from, or you could go and do something else. I would go over to the Museum of Natural History, take out a stuffed squirrel or stuffed whatever, bring it back, and I'd paint that instead of the model. So consequently I got the name squirrel. So a lot of my stuff was nature oriented. So I brought the portfolio in and the first thing the fellow in charge Rick Leichtung says, he goes-- He says, "where'd you keep this portfolio?" He says, "it smells musty." I says, well it's in my basement, I don't go looking for jobs that often." I said, "so it's been down there a while." So they looked at my work. I started work the 01:38:00following Monday that was in April of 1983 and I worked there for 27 years. For a mail-order catalogue company, which changed hands from Leichtung Tool to, you know, a spin-off called "Improvements," to you know various other catalogs which we have which is currently Improvements. And I worked with the same company and the same people for 27 years, until I was let go.

CW: Looking back on your experience in Vietnam how would you say it effected your life?

LB: I would say affected my life. Oh gosh, I know friends of mine-- There's other dog handlers which currently I'm in touch with. Had had problems with PTSD. And that's when it first came up, which was much later after-- when we returned, when they finally discovered, you know, why some of the veterans were feeling and doing what they were doing. It never occurred to me. I never felt that way. I don't know, I've kind of felt that it was just another stepping stone. It was just two years out of my life that, you know, I made as worthwhile as possible. There was nothing I could do about it. I made the best I could and I was never angry, or said, "boy if it weren't for that two years there I'd be here. I'd be here or there." I never did that and don't do that. So it was just 01:40:00a blip. The experiences I have had there are fine. I used to joke with people at the place where I worked for 27 years, you know, I know I was, you know, when something would come up, I'm going, "hey did you hear a snap." I said, "you know I'm a Vietnam vet and I could snap in like 15 seconds." You hear a snap and I'd be at you. Okay, yeah, I just joke. So if it's, you know, I just joke about my time there. So yeah, it was all good.

CW: You were exposed to Agent Orange, were you not?

LB: Yes, I was as a dog handler. You know we went with a unit and the one unit, you know, we didn't work in triple-canopy jungles all the time. We worked in various areas. And when you find one area that is like, you know, you're working in a triple-canopy jungle and all of a sudden you come to an area that is defoliated and there's standing trees but no vegetation. You kind of wonder what's going on. I never knew at the time that it was Agent Orange, not until much much later, but you know we slept overnight in that area for two days and then moved out. Back in Vietnam we were also-- There were, you know, and it may be Agent Orange and, you know, we were submitted to a lot of chemicals there, because being in the rear and probably not as much as the as the grunts out. But when we were back in the rear area around our hooches and that, in order to keep 01:42:00the mosquitoes down and stuff like that they had sprayed around our hooches almost every day or at least every time it rained. Especially, you know, rain puddles would accumulate mosquito larvae and stuff so they, you know, there was constantly a smell of some sort of chemical around the area all the time. So who knows. You know, what all kinds of guys were, you know, not immune to but who were subjected to because of that. But yeah I did work in a in a place that was Agent Orange, which I found out you know much much later. You know.

CW: Would you tell us about your son?

LB: When we came back, when I came back from the States. Of course we tried to get it-- tried to start a family right away even though I wasn't working. Probably figured that wasn't gonna be that long. We tried to start a family and our-- we had a hard time. Our first pregnancy was aborted. It didn't go full term and so not knowing what to do we started to look for, you know, other other things. So we were going to adopt. And of course that was like a year or two-year process because they had to do a home study and all this stuff and everything and that. So we were into the adoption and probably very close as I recall Diane will probably correct you later, but we got pregnant again. And so 01:44:00we, you know, they called and wanted to set up a-- I remember they called and wanted to set up this home study finally and told them well, you know, I'm sorry but we're pregnant. So it's no use having a home study if we're pregnant and due to have a baby. So Matthew was born in January of 1976, January 15th and he was our firstborn. And we got him to the hospital and everything apparently was going okay the, baby was born, they took Diane away, they took the baby away. The doctor pulled me aside and said "Larry there's a problem with the baby." I'm going, "what's the problem?" He says "he's born with-- apparently he's got spina bifida." He was born with his spine, backside of his spine, the lower part was open and in being open in utero the spinal cord and everything had grown more than what it should. And so it-- What it does was you know they tried to do as much as they could at Geauga County Hospital in Chardon and they rushed him within you know a matter of hours down to Rainbow and Babies Children's Hospital in Cleveland to repair the situation. Diane saw the baby very briefly. I had to break the news to her that there was a problem with the baby. She was-- He was natural born. She was bound and determined to nurse him but, she couldn't leave 01:46:00the hospital while he was down there. So it was up to me. She would express milk and I was the milk man delivering the milk down to Rainbow and Babies Children's Hospital every day. The amount he needed. And he was probably in a-- He was probably down at Rainbow and Babies Children's Hospital for oh good three four months before we could finally take him home. Because they did all kinds of tests on him and of course then we were tested. And, you know, where did you go? Oh you're a Vietnam vet. You worked where? You know, you're possible, you know chemicals. Did you ever hear of Agent Orange? No. Didn't hear that. You know any other people in your family have any kind of problems. No. So, you know, all of a sudden we're now a case study. Plus he has, they found out much later-- besides having spina bifida he was also diagnosed with Rubinstein-Taybi syndrome which accounts for his mental retardation. The spina bifida accounts for his not having control over his bladder or his ability to walk. Because that was so much lower on his spine. The Rubinstein-Taybi syndrome has to do with the 23rd chromosome which accounts for his mental retardation, his short stature, his overall physical look, and his 01:48:00what they call Hitchhiker's thumb. He has a thumb that you know constantly looks like your hitchhiking. You meet other kids with Rubinstein-Taybi and you swear they were all related. It's kind of like the Down syndrome, where all the Down syndrome kids look alike. The Rubinstein-Taybi kids all look alike. So we found that out later going to-- You know, we were lucky enough to learn about this and to be in the state of Ohio, because the gentleman-- One of the gentlemen who discovered Rubinstein-Taybi was Dr. Rubinstein who worked out of the Babies and Children's Hospital in Cincinnati. And I forget back in probably the 80s, early 80, they finally had a conference of all the kids with Rubinstein-Taybi syndrome and to meet other kids from across the United States from other people across the world, in Africa and a large amount in England and in one of the either Denmark or Holland, Sweden somewhere in there, in one of those countries that have, you know, Rubinstein-Taybi. When you walk into a place and they all look like Mathew it was like amazing, you know. All the kids got together it was like you they're like brothers and sisters, alike, all of them, you know. And we kept in touch for quite a while. We went to I think two or three conferences down there that they would have every few years. And Dr. Rubinstein would want to know all kinds of background information and stuff like that, and you know. And 01:50:00Dr. Taybi, who was on the west coast in California, he would fly in for the conference, which usually lasted like four or five days, and that. And they would have other speakers, and that, talk there. And there's still a Rubinstein-Taybi group, which you know we're like the elderly people for it now since Matthew is 37. But he has spina bifida and you know his-- And at that time when he went in the 80s he was one of four people in the United States that had the combination of both spina bifida and Rubinstein-Taybi, which they thought was very unusual. Three of them lived in Ohio, so. But he's doing very well. As well as he can be. He's a character. We had two other boys after that. That didn't deter us from having more children. And I remember with the birth of our second child--of course we were under study at the Rainbow and Babies Children's Hospital--the woman pediatrician said--not pediatrician but the surgeon--said, "well in case you have another, you know, baby with with the same problems would you want to have it, you know, taken care of or aborted?" And you know, we said "no, no." And Christian was born all healthy. He's a year and a half younger than Matthew and after that we had Benjamin, three years after Christopher. And 01:52:00it's like they all went up in size. Matthew was like the runt he's like four foot something, Chris is six foot one, and Benjamin's like six foot seven. It's like, you know, we always told Ben he was adopted because he was the tallest one in the family, until he found his birth certificate in our Bible. His brothers were very defensive and protective of him, but they would always kid him. Because Matthew is, he's unabashed he would go up to any young lady and go your name, want to know your name. That's all. He could go into an empty room and not know anybody by the end of an hour or so we would have met everybody in that room. Because Matthew would go from person to person, you know, and just talk to them or try to arm wrestle them, if he was a guy. But he would, you know, just go for the young ladies. And Ben and Chris when they were in grade school would always go, "Matt ask name, phone number, name, phone number." But he never got past the name, no. So, yeah. He's a joy.

CW: Is there anything that you think people should know about the Vietnam experience? Anything you want to tell us?

LB: Wow, like I said earlier I'm very big on history, and I read a lot about the Vietnam War, after I got back. The beginnings of it, all the politics of it, and 01:54:00that's what people have to be more or less-- People should not give up on history or they should not give up on talking to older people who have been there, because if you don't you're bound to repeat yourself. And I'm afraid that's what we're getting into currently now in 2013. I fear for the young people now, not my kids they're already well older in their 30s. The youngest one is 33 or 32. He won't serve, but you know those that are coming up, you know. I study history listen to people, listen to the vets. Ask them questions, you know. I would never talk to anybody unless somebody asked me. It was a long time that I kept everything here and who knows why. Yeah, okay, I served. I don't brag about it. I'm proud of it, you know. I'm proud of it. I did what was asked of me. A lot of guys did. We were all brothers in arms and all you got to do is talk to us, we'll tell you how I feel. We'll tell you, you know. So but, I would say the biggest thing is, you know, history. Read whatever you can. Don't 01:56:00give up on it, you know. Because that's what you're gonna find out what the futures like, by reading what happened in the past.

CW: Thank you.

LB: That's it? Wow.

CW: If you would like to keep going--

LB: Oh my goodness time flies.

CW: If there is anything that we haven't asked you yet that you would like to mention, please do.

LB: Boy, I don't know. We went through a lot. Now I wish I would have brought my diary or looked at it. I kept a diary when I was overseas. We've still got all the letters that I wrote Diane and Diane wrote me. Those are in a suitcase. I'm currently trying to put them together for my boys so that they have a book of what our experience was. Because, you know, all they know is that you know. I served overseas and I was in-- They don't know anything else other than that. And so I wanted to put our letters all in, you know, other than, you know, when they get them after we pass away and they come across this suitcase full of letters and go what the heck is this. Okay [pffttt] gone. I wanted to put it at least in some kind of legible form that, you know, day-by-day that they could find how we felt for towards one another. How I was feeling. How mom felt and stuff like that. So I think that would be important for them to see. Other than 01:58:00that, you know, I've got photographs over there that, you know, you can look at that and some other mementos. But, you know, there weren't too many of them. I had Cali's--The other piece I had from Cali besides her muzzle was--and like I said I didn't use the muzzle that often, only twice--but was her harness and I kept that. That I have at my house because it was a leather harness and with a penknife I put her name--Cali--into it, so. And I was hoping to get to the scout dog memorial in October and donate those somehow down there so that other people could see them, you know, because I think it's important. I'm-- From here we're going to Gettysburg, Pennsylvania because of, you know, like I said I missed out on 150th anniversary in July, because I was raising puppies. But I think it's important to to see what went on there and the lives that were lost and those that were given up and different stories that went on, you know, by the people there. And it's nice to see mementos that were in families all of a sudden show up as part of a attribute or a museum, you know. That, you know, people don't hold on to them that other people could see them. So, and know what's going on, 02:00:00you know.