Jack Buel

CW: Today is May 24th. I'm Cameron Wood here with Jack Buel and his daughter Karen Carey at the V.A. Medical Center in Columbus, Ohio. Mr. Buel can you please say and spell your name for me.

JB: Jack J A C K Orin B U E L one L.

CW: One L not two Ls.

JB: Nope.

CW: Where and when were you born?

JB: Same place Columbus, Ohio, Hope Avenue.

CW: Hope Avenue is that on the east side or the West Side?

JB: It's on the south side, yeah.

KC: South. South end.

CW: Southside, okay. What was it like growing up in Columbus?

JB: Share it again.

CW: What was it like growing up in Columbus?

JB: Well to me it was, it was the time when nobody had jobs. And of course, I worked on a garden to help out. Dollar and quarter a day if you worked all day long.

KC: He started working when he was seven years old.

JB: And you only had. Well you worked from daylight to dark of course. Hand a dollar and a quarter you got it at daylight to dark. Dollar and quarter wasn't much at that time. Well at that time it helped.

CW: What did your parents do?

JB: My parents. My dad was a mold maker and my mother stayed at home with nine kids.

CW: Nine kids. Where did you fall in the nine kids?

JB: Next to the last.

CW: Next to the last so almost the youngest; next to the youngest.

JB: Next to the youngest.

CW: So having nine brothers and sisters. Did you spend a lot of time playing or was it mostly working?

JB: Working for me. The girls they played, I guess they did. But myself I worked on the garden. My Uncle, Uncle Bill, who are might call him my cousin and. He was on a garden. He owned a garden. What didn't move, shell. Normally I got. And that went for mom to can. Brought them home. We ate them. Tomatoes, carrots, radishes, whatever. What didn't sell on market it went for moms to canning.

CW: Did you still enjoy gardening as you got older.

JB: Oh yeah. Used to always have a garden when the war ended. I had a garden. Yeah I enjoyed gardening.

CW: So is there a tradition of military history in your family?

JB: No, no, I'm the only one who was in the Army.

CW: Did your father ever or you have father or uncles that served?

JB: No I don't think.

KC: How about Wilford?

JB: Ah, no he wasn't in either.

KC: The one that got shot down in an airplane.

JB: No he have started up but he got shot down.

KC: Oh was he in the Air Force?

JB: Yeah.

KC: Was he a cousin?

JB: Yeah. He was a cousin Wilford Knighton.

KC: Wilford Knighton.

CW: Wilford Knighton.

JB: He was a cousin of course when the war started everybody. Normally got in being that the war was on. And he crashed here in Germany I believe it was.

CW: So as as you're getting older. Did you, how much schooling did you get?

JB: I went all the way through. I failed English and then when I came back they gave me my diploma. They drafted me out of school.

CW: Drafted you right out of school.

JB: Yeah.

CW: So how old were you when you were drafted?

JB: Oh gosh. That was a long time ago.

KC: I believe it was eighteen.

CW: Eighteen.

KC: Between 17 and 18.

CW: Yeah I think they can draft you when your 17 but you don't get to enter until you're 18.

KC: His teacher told him that he was going to get drafted.

JB: My teachers that failed me. I think she was just trying to keep me out of the war. I don't know. I don't know that for sure. But then my registration room teacher was the draft board. On the draft board. And he told me that very next morning that my name went through the draft. But it didn't make a difference anyhow. All the, everybody, everybody was in the army. And momma said no for me. 00:06:00And without your mom you couldn't, you couldn't get in the army. So I, my buddies all joined the army and left me home all by myself. So I talked to my mother. My mother said no. So you got to do what Mom said.

CW: But you got drafted anyway.

JB: Yeah. Yeah. My school teacher. Registration room teacher. Told me that my name went through and he was on that board.

CW: So your mom wasn't happy about you going to war?

JB: No she wasn't happy she was she usually wasn't too happy about anything. She wasn't bitter or nothing. She just wasn't. Was unhappy about me going to war or me going overseas or me meeting a girl. She don't like her right away and my sisters complained to her about her not liking the girl I picked. And so a little, a little confusion and they got over it.

CW: So what was your, what was your process of getting drafted like? What did they do after they drafted you?

JB: Well, right away they sent me to Wisconsin. God's country, they told me God's country. And snow was belly button high. I can't consider that God's country, but that's what they called it God's country. And that's about all 00:08:00there was to it. And then we got training then for, must have been a year or so. Time doesn't go very fast and then they goes very fast. It just, I can't remember everything that happened there but I was just I suppose like everybody else. When they needed you they shipped you out.

CW: How did you get assigned to the armored artillery?

JB: Well first I was in the infantry artillery. So we went through that training four or five times. Then we was in the Airborne artillery. Gliders and that stuff. And then we airborne, gliders, infantry, and then we went to New Jersey. New Jersey said POE port of embarkation. So we went to Wales that's in England I suppose. So, after we got to Wales they introduced you to the tanks. Then we found out we was armored artillery. They never told us nothing. They said if we ever got captured we don't know nothing. And that was true. We didn't know nothing. So we got in the armored artillery with General Patton.

CW: How did you feel about being in the armored artillery?

JB: Don't make any differnce they told me that's what I was. To me everything 00:10:00was all right. I was going to find out, I was going to wind up anyhow somewhere. So to me it didn't make any difference. And then we got on the front line that you've heard of the heroes. That's when we started going across France. And as we was going across France they told us we're headed for Paris. Well that was exciting. Everybody talked about Paris. So we headed for Paris and it was, it seemed like forever. Then we got to Paris. And we got almost to Paris and they told us we're not allowed to go through Paris. That was kind of disappointing. But we heard a lot of, had a lot of exciting times going that way. We'd go through a town and it wouldn't be long we'd be out of that town and going to another town. It wasn't fun of course. We destroyed everything we went through naturally tanks do. And they told us that we had to go around different places, go around town and why we got almost to Paris we're not allowed to go through Paris. And wondered why we weren't allowed to go through Paris. Well that was 00:12:00left for the French. The French Free Army. They had to do Paris. So we went around Paris and we went up to Alsace and Alsace-Lorraine. And there we spent a lot of time waiting for the French, American, and British army to get to us. American, French, and British Yeah. And they were driving the Germans towards us. And we're sitting there shooting at them as they come through. Just a big, big shoot it all was. So we took care of that.

CW: What was your position in the in the tank? What was your job?

JB: I was a gunner until the chief got killed and it was always monkey move up then. Then I was a sergeant. That meant I was in charge of seven men and we sat there Alsace Alsace-Lorraine. We sat there for a long time and shot at whatever come by. And that was quite a, quite a job. We shot most of our shells right there. So we went on. We went on there sittig and waiting for the French and German and American Armies to push the Germans our way. And shooting gallery is all it was. We did a lot of shooting. The After we was there just a little 00:14:00while, and then, all the once they said the Battle of the Bulge was coming up. So Patton's attached- unassigned they called us took care of the Battle of the Bulge. We went there to Belgium. That was a very very cold working place, very cold. That's where I got hit. And of course battle of the. I was monkey move up again. When they, when I got there they hauled me off. Pulled my clothes off. I'm naked now and the snow is all over the place and they took me then back to England. I was all over that place.

KC: What about being on the front lines for six months?

JB: Oh yeah, well before that. When we got to that area just before we started out from. Oh, my gosh I forget this Alsace-Lorraine. After we started out there and we went then to it was at that time. Hell, I'm lost now.

KC: How about you being on the front lines for six months?

JB: Yeah. We hadn't had a bath for six months. They replaced my tank with a new tank, cause my tank was kind of scarred up pretty bad. So they gave me a new one. When they gave me a new one I got hit. And that was a shame.

CW: Why did you get hit by?

JB: It had to be an 88 [8.8 cm Flak] that's the only thing you ever heard of when something come in. A shell come in. It was in 88 but they shot other shells too.

KC: The shrapnel.

CW: Right

JB: And the shrapnel of course hit me in the butt.

KC: And broke a leg.

JB: It hit me on the side, went through come out my tailbone and then it went through my leg and broke it. And I got a piece in my shoulder and a piece in my...

KC: Foot.

JB: Piece in my heel. But before that, before that we were always being called. Get up. Get out of bed fire mission. Always, all the time. That got boring got very boring. Anyhow they said, the chief got killed and that's when they made me seargent. And after that we had to go to the Bulge which that was quite, quite a 00:18:00trip through Belgium. We lost a tank.

KC: I was talking about was every division that came in you got attached to that division to do the job they were had to do.

JB: Yeah.

KC: Then that division would come back in and get rest, but dad stayed out there. They never had a shower or anything for six months.

JB: We were still, always out there. They called us the bastards [Battered Bastards of Bastogne?]. Whether you use that word or not, that's what they called us.

CW: Were you, when you got into combat what were you usually firing at? Was it other carriers, tanks?

JB: Oh, I was going to tell you there was one outfit that fired. The Germans fired at us. And so, they had a bad habit of doing it again tomorrow night. So they were sitting there watching a whole bunch of lights flashing. They come into the same place. Bunch of lights flashing they're setting up. So we fired which is a terrible place for an outfit to be. To get into that firing. Anyhow, [inaudible] men come back and he said it was all girls. All German girls and we was firing at them. When the idea was we was to fire at them. When they come in it did that and when we were firing and we quit firing the infantry was to move in. Which is natural for anything like that. That's when they found out it was all girls. We didn't know they was girls, but a little kid with a rifle gets 00:20:00shot. Anyhow, we got orders then we're going to Belgium. So we got on our tanks and went to Belgium. We lost one tank on the way to Belgium. And when we got up there bombing and shooting around and really a mess. So we went through Belgium. And we got seven miles out past Belgium. And that's when we had to pull out and go back. Two of my men got in a fist fight. And of course I stepped in between them and that is, you don't do that when two men are fighting. I stepped between the men I got a jaw busted in, not busted, hit. My eye was black and a lieutenant come over and he says. What's going on? And they was already gone. I was the only one on the field. Then. I said everything's all right. We got it settled. I just step in between them and they settled it. So any how.

CW: Do you remember what they were fighting about?

JB: They didn't know what they was fighting about. I don't think.

KC: Wasn't that the driver and.

JB: It was the driver and the machine gunner of the tank. That and.

KC: They didn't get along.

JB: They didn't get along and neither did Stanger. He was just an oddball that handled ammunition. Don't write his name down Stanger was a. Good nothing another guy. All he was.

KC: A good guy?

JB: Huh?

KC: A good guy?

JB: No.

KC: Oh okay.

JB: Anyhow the way that the men was chosen. Everybody was chosen, they chose certain ones for their tank and then you take whatever is left over. And that's what happened to this tank I was on. Sergeant Alexander, don't write his name down either because he was an awful nice guy. But he got killed and that's another thing. Anyhow. Finally, I got hit in the hip, come out my tailbone. And I was shipped back to England. All the way back to England from Belgium. And I got out of the blizzard that I was in and all that snow and cold weather. I got out of that. That was nice, wasn't nice that I was hit, but it was nice to get ou of that. Anyhow Stanger, one of the men, was supposed to have the ears on to get the message. He was watching the two guys fighting instead of giving me the message. And I was busy trying to break up the fight, fist fight. Boring is what 00:24:00it was. You never got away from the tank. You never got a chance to wash up or take a shower. It was monotonous just shooting all the time. Anyhow.

KC: All the rest the tanks left.

JB: All the rest the tanks was gone and we're sitting out in a field and those guys and fist fighting that wasn't too nice. Germans coming across the field. Long ways out they were coming. I had, I finally found the place where the other tanks went and I wound up over there.

KC: How about the one time when you were all surrounded by Germans?

JB: Oh that was way back. Way back where. Lets see. It was one time we was trying to get through a line. I think it was the Siegfried Line and I don't know for sure. We couldn't get through it. So we backed up and 500 bombers, bombed a half mile square. That was quite a loud noise. And they got everything chopped up and we went to try to go through again. No problem. Two or three men standing not knowing what in the world is going on. Those were Germans of course. And we 00:26:00went through and we flagged them just go back, but they were stand there dumbfounded I suppose. There was no problem getting through then.

KC: Every time they were surrounded by Germans. The air took care of them.

JB: Airplanes come in and got us out. But we were always, being armored, we'd break through and get behind the line. And that always give us problems. We always went through the line and the Germans was of course everywhere. Tat's what tanks were for to break through the line and go on through. There was an awful awful lot I forgot.

CW: Did you ever have trouble with any of the infantry. Did they ever try and use an anti-tank rocket on you or anything. Or it was usually pretty easy to get through.

JB: Yeah we had we had that quite often we had one time where my tank. Was going through part of a wood and we pulled up and stopped and a shell went right up underneath my tank. And plowed furrow all the way back behind me and it just missed my tank. Another time.

KC: And exploded once it went by.

JB: And exploded way out back on the other side. Another time. I was, we was going on through a certain place a town. People out and wave and you can imagine 00:28:00a bunch of people waving at the Americans. They'd done the same thing to the Germans they wave the German through too what can they do they had to do that. And they was waving us through and Brickler, number one man that was with the machine gun. He was leaning way out to get a bottle of wine. And this shell come through and hit the house alongside of me of course tore the house all to hell. Leave hell out. And it tore the house all to hell and.

KC: As you were going through everybodies waving.

JB: Everybody was waving and I raised up and looked. And nobody, nobody around everybody was gone. It was surprisingly funny, but not a bit funny. It is surprising that they would stand there waving in and ain't know body there. So fast they disappeared. And another time we were cornered. Had a railroad to one side automobile road on the other side and we were stuck. The anti-tank gun was way over here shooting. And you can hear that shell going wwwaaaahhhh. And the shell would go through and then the sound of the shell would go through and then 00:30:00the guy would shoot it. That's how fast those bullets flew. There was projectiles. Anyhow they made a racket. What else?

KC: I don't know.

JB: Oh airplanes. Those air... we were stuck in is one place down between a railroad and the automobile road. And

KC: The airplanes.

JB: Well, we was cornered we couldn't get out there without somebody knocking us off. And, I forget so darn much. These airplanes were flying up there, eighteen of them. They told us over 18 airplanes dive bombers. Can you tell us where you are. We can come in and help yeah. And they were flying around there. And finally there was an open place where the sky opened up. And there was their airplanes come down through there. Over here they're diving, right in front, right in front of my tank. They dive over here and start shooting over here. And the bullets are going over top of us and they're dropping their bomb. Boy that was a weird feeling they shouldn't drop them bombs over there, they drop over here. Anyhow, they knew just exactly what they was doing. They dropped the bomb 00:32:00and started the machine guns and they'd fly past. Drop that bomb and the whole world is shaken when they dropped that bomb and they got us out. We didn't even have to shoot a shot. When they got done, there was nothing over there. The Germans were dead. Different battles a lot of them were that way. Once the airplanes come in and dropped them big bombs. That was the end of it.

KC: And how about how the army guys on the ground always didn't think too much about the Air Force until.

JB: Yeah, we're always caution Air Force because when they get done shooting the bullets they go home to a nice warm bed. And we're out there in the field in the winter and sleeping in a snow hole. We was always against that.

KC: Until?

JB: Until they did. Their first time they got us out. Then we thought they're pretty nice guys and they got us out three times.

CW: Did you ever meet any of the... did you ever buy them a drink?

JB: No. The Air Corps slept way back behind us and that was the end of it. We never he any of the Air Corp men and that is, the airplanes we saw them in the air of course. They done a pretty good Air Corps done fine.

CW: Was there ever a time you were the most scared when you're out there?

JB: No I don't think so. I was always scared. That's the reason I got through I guess I was scared jumped in my hole when something went wrong. Always dig a hole When something goes wrong why that's the only thing that saves you, that hole.

CW: I didn't ask you earlier what battalion or division were you in?

JB: No division.

CW: No division.

JB: We were. What did they call us?

KC: Attached.

JB: Cast attached unassigned with Patton. So we were extras if they needed, ifthey needed firepower we were called over there. If they needed firepower. And we was on, I was on the front line six months and so was the outfit I was with, but who worries about wishing at that time you're busy shooting shellls. But they they still say the outfits like Patton's back behind it was easy, the artillery was easy. We had a division of American infantry that came up that was supposed to be there before us were artillery. And that's what they said you're artillery you're way back here. First thing they did is build fires. Why there was coal and you almost have to have a fire. Build a fire and a shell come in of 00:36:00course everybody says 88 but, hell it could have been anything. Anything but an 88 and it split the fire right in two, and a fire flew everywhere naturally. And I seen arms and legs flying and when I got up then after that shell come in I duck. When I got up and looked around these guys are running. Nobody lost their legs or arms it was just men that was flying. Nobody was even wounded. Should have been blown all to hell. But they didn't, they got away with that one because they were back with the artillery. That's what they thought anyhow back with the artillery, but that wasn't back that was on the line. Usually the armor is on the line.

CW: Did you feel lucky to be armored artillery?

JB: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I felt very lucky. I felt not safe after we got there. We was always under fire all the time. But we could shoot seven miles and they had 00:38:00armor that could shoot, the Germans, had armor that could shoot further than that. When they moved in that artillery we couldn't do, nothing in them. We wasn't our guns would only shoot seven mile. I say only and that ain't far enough when you're in a war. Germans had us outclassed. They had gigantic tanks and tiger tank. They had big tanks. The only bad thing about that they didn't have the gasoline to support that tank.

KC: What about the time that you were shooting at a church?

JB: Church steeple. I don't like to talk about that.

KC: Go ahead talk about.

JB: They said Buel over there get ready. OK I'm ready. I was the best shot at that time. Now I got my eyes going I couldn't see nothing now. But I was the best gunner at the time. And Buel over there, that church steeple down there. It was it's five miles away. Can you imagine shooting at a church steeple five miles away? So I Shot at it and nothing I didn't knock it down. So he said shoot three more times. So I did. Didn't knock it down, didn't even come close. When you shoot the tank moves of course and they didn't allow for my tank moving. And I didn't even come close so they readjusted. Anyhow, I had shot 19 times at that church steeple. Never hit it once and there wasn't a house in town. All of them was gone. I knocked them all down. I suppose other people was in on it too. But 00:40:00I never did hit that church steeple. That was the same thing when I told I told you the. What is at the houses was knocked down. More than likely other people had shot at that too. And I heard that there wasn't a housing in town just the church steeple.

CW: What kind of tank were you in?

JB: M7 that's what it identified as.

CW: Did you. Did you name your tank? Did it have a name?

JB: No. No we never did. We got into combat so fast we didn't have time to name the tank. We were just lucky that we didn't get tore up. Now there was some of our tanks that were tore up. I don't know why but if a shell hit it was on fire. But the only thing that would be on fire was gasoline. I don't know what there is on a tank to burn. All armor. But they usually burn. Lots of oil on a tank and lots of lots of gas. And you only got a quarter of a mile on a gallon of gas.

CW: How often do you have to get refueled?

JB: Every day. Every day when we was going across France to get to the border of Germany. We was going across there and we had to get refueled I'll bet six or seven times. It was always, It was always empty. And that's the first thing you done when you got a run, you run from here to there. First thing you do is gas up.

CW: Did they bring you gas and the big gas truck?

JB: Big gas truck. Yeah. Sometimes they'll drive around and put the gas in when you stop. Sometimes you got to go over and get what we call them jerry cans. We had to go get the jerry cans and carry them over to the tank.

CW: Did you ever worry about the enemy targeting the gas trucks or did they only show?

JB: Oh they do.

CW: Yeah.

JB: Oh they do or they did. They target the gas truck or the mess hall, they target that too. But they're always targeting any vehicle they see. They knock it if they can.

CW: So we had gotten to the point where you had been injured and had gone back to England. What was that like?

JB: That was confusing, very confusing. I got back so far and you got your 00:44:00hospitals. You go one two three hospitals. And I woke up and the doc said. How are things going up there? I said ahhhh. That's all I remember saying if that's saying something. And then another place we got to England. I mean things happen fast. I got to England and I raised up and to Germans was carrying the litter. I thought oh hell, I guess we're captured now. I wasn't, they wasjust working. Working their food supply better those that work got a better food supply. And that's, I raised up and looked at them and I'll bet I looked funny. When I looked at, they were big fellas. And I thought oh damn we're captured sure as hell. But, I got on the boat had to walk across a ramp water underneath there. Oh man, they're gonna drop me sure as hell. They are the enemy. But they didn't. They carried me on in and put me on a boat. That was a little confusing little. What would you say? Really confusing. But, that wasn't bad at all and they carried me, they carried me from the land to the boat over the water. Oh that was awful.

KC: How'd they treated in England?

JB: England they treated me pretty good. They treated me all right. Of course I was no different than anybody else. I was just the same guy. Just an American. Everything that was broke they wrote it down. I suppose the American Army would pay for it. I suppose a broken window. They write it down every time they come around they'd write that window broke down. I suppose the Americans had to pay for that.

CW: How how long were you in England?

JB: You know that's something I don't know. I must have been there three months. I don't really know how long. Time goes so slow and it goes so fast that I really couldn't remember anything. And then I had a two months vacation furlough, two months furlough there too. I don't really know how long, it was quite a long time. When I came back to the outfit. When I got back to the outfit they was in Czechoslovakia and Belgium is where I was wounded. Time went pretty fast.

CW: So what did you do when you got back to the outfit in Czechoslovakia?

JB: Nothing. When I got to Czechoslovakia they told me hell. Who are you? And I 00:48:00said I'm Buel. They said hell we thought you were dead, and anybody that's dead they take your clothing and whatever you got on the tank put it out in the center of the field. Whatever you want go out there and get it. Cause he's dead he don't need iy no more. When I got back to the outfit one guy said who are you? I told him Buel. We thought you were dead.

CW: So all your stuff was gone?

JB: Everything was gone of course. They wouldn't have let me bring it back to the states anyhow. I had, we liberated a warehouse full of whiskey. Four star cognac and that was one bottle for each man and one bottle to share. And that was liberated of course. And some people let their man drink it. I wouldn't let mine drink it. I was afraid they'd get drunk. And hell, at that time you didn't want no drunk on that tank and I don't drink. Never did. So to me it didn't hurt or bother me. It bother my men. They wanted to get drunk.

KC: So when you got hit.

JB: Huh?

KC: So when you got hit.

JB: When I got hit they would carry me off the field. Whole bunch of guys would 00:50:00carry me off the field. I suppose they want to know where all that stuff is, all they have to do is look on the tank and it is there. And I looked over your side and there's Stanger. You heard that name before I guess. He jumped into my hole and he had my bed roll in in his hand. I sewed a blanket into my bed roll, warmer of course. And he was standing up in the hole. They were still shelling of course. He should have been in the hole but he had an armload of my bed roll. That's the reason a lot of people didn't like Stanger. He was right to grab it. Anyhow, I seen him there with my bed roll don't make any difference I don't need it anyhow. And I would imagine right away they carried everything I had out in the center of the field.

KC: But what happened to the liquor?

JB: Liquor I don't know what happened to that.

KC: You said that the guy drank all of it.

JB: Oh yeah, it was gone. When I got back. There were no more booze. They told me everybody got drunk which was what I was afraid of everybody going to get drunk. I didn't like them getting drunk. Especially when my life is involved.

CW: Right.

JB: I had a keg of beer and numerous bottles of wine and seven bottles of whiskey four star cognac. Good whiskey. That we liberated.

CW: So when you got back you said there was nothing going on?

JB: When I got back. The war was over with and there was nothing happening and I asked Brickler who was the gunner at the time. He took my place. No, no he didn't take my place another sergeant took my place. But Brickler then was the gunner. He took. I was chief of section of course and the. Brickler took over gunner.

KC: And weren't you an MP [Military Police] or SP?

JB: Pardon.

KC: Weren't you an MP at one time?

JB: Oh no, that's after the war was over with. You only want to know about about the was didn't you?

CW: I want to hear a little bit about after the war.

JB: Oh, after the war.

CW: Yeah, I heard you met a woman and got married.

JB: Yeah. After the war I met Dina [Gerritdina] and married her. But that's, my goodness that's a long ways from the war. She was...

KC: How did you meet her?

JB: Oh, I had a stick of chewing gum. I had a half a bushel basket of candy. Nobody wanted their candy ration. So I bought their candy ration and I gave it to the kids. And I'm out of candy, no more candy. And I had a stick of chewing 00:54:00gum. You know what a K-ration stick of chewing gum is? That's what I had a K-ration stick of chewing gum. And, the boy come over he was senile. He come over to me and looked at me and all I had left was that chewing gum. So I gave him the chewing gum and then he run over to a girl. Two girls really. So naturally it gave me a chance to run over to the girl, and that was Dina, my wife. She was watching the baby and that's how I met Dina, your mother. That was a pretty good kid. He wasn't bad. He was pretty nice. But he didn't know when he was strong, did he?

KC: No. He was retarded. So that's how mom and dad met.

JB: A stick of chewing gum, I got her for a stick of chewing gum. I don't think she. I told everybody that I'd tell everybody how I got my wife, a stick of chewing gum. I don't think she figured I was bad did she?

KC: No she liked that.

CW: Where was she from?

JB: She was from Holland, Nijmegen. You ever hear of Nijmegen?

CW: No.

KC: Nijmegen.

JB: There was a big battle fought there. When the Americans got through Nijmegen they had a battle there.

KC: The Germans, the Germans went to where mother was living and they asked my mother if she would work for Hitler in Germany. If she would have said no they would have killed her right then.

JB: Or took her anyhow. It was just like me drafted in the army. When the Germans took over they took the people and the people if they couldn't work. They built supplies for the Germans.

CW: Did she have a pretty rough time working for the Germans?

JB: No. She knew people that was in Germany, which people did know different people. And she lived with them instead of living in a camp. And she wrote down when a new man comes into the camp she wrote his name down. Keep track of her.

KC: Secretary.

JB: Some was lucky enough to have that kind of a job.

KC: And Hitler fed the people in Germany artificial food. Cause they were starving.

JB: Yeah well, we eat artificial food too sometimes. I don't know, her whole family died of cancer. I don't know whether they fed them food that caused that or not. So the, the whole family died of cancer.

KC: Dad reenlisted so he could go back to get mother.

CW: So how long after the war, after you were in Czechoslovakia, did you meet her for the first time?

JB: How long? I had. You went home by numbers. Whatever you done they added those numbers up and you went home by those numbers. I was on my way back home and when I got. Where did I get? I got pretty well close to the coast Augsburg. I got back to Augsburg and I had, I forget now, 18 points or something like that. And we got to where the outfit was we was supposed to join up with and they was going across the bridge as we got to Augsburg. And when that happened the guard at the at the railroad said there they go right there get to running, no way to get, catch a vehicle. Anyhow he says there is your trip home and they're gone now so you can't, you can't go with them. So he said I'll call the captain see what to do with you. I had a bunch of guys that was with me. A bunch of GIs that was supposed to go home. And so when I got to where I found out 01:00:00where I'm going go. They.

KC: Where did you go?

JB: Huh?

KC: Where did he put you?

JB: Augsburg, we was in Augsburg on the railroad as MPs and nobody wanted to be an MP. Because they just hated to be an MP. So the captain said Well I don't know what. Oh yes, I know what to do with you. Declare you essential. The army can always figure out some kind of a new outfit. Declare you essential. And you'll be attached to my outfit. And that meant we don't go home. That meant we stay here in old Augsburg. So we then went to Augsburg and we were now essential. You don't go home. The numbers don't count. I was sending home with, sending guys home with three points. And I had 48 or 58 or something like that I forget now how many points I had. But I had all of them points. Anyhow they.

KC: Was you anything other than an MP?

JB: Huh?

KC: Was you anything other than an MP?

JB: Oh yeah, they bounced me back to an SP. Didn't nobody want to be an MP. So they gave us SP. And then they found another number for constabulary and there 01:02:00was one more. Oh, SIS [The SIS was the Special Investigation Squad of the United States Constabulary in operation after WWII from 1946-1953] They put me in the SIS. You really had to know your stuff in SIS. I got off a mail guard and they said don't take your clothes off you're going to Nuremberg. So I went to to Nuremberg and took my picture and give me a little book [Trooper's Handbook] affair. And they said you're now in the SIS. That's how much I had to study to get into SIS. A Special Investigation. and I continued to do mail guard but I'm SIS now. Didn't mean nothing but that little book. You show that little book and you got it. You as I lieutenant or whatever. No matter what that book said, you was, you was doing great.

KC: They gave them all special privileges.

JB: Yeah, if I went to a railroad station where they had food, different places you could go and there was food for an American soldier. And if you go there and show that you got a white tablecloth and you got everything and you're just a soldier, just like everyone else. But it meant something but, it didn't mean nothing to me.

CW: Were you okay at still being overseas at this point? Were you disappointed to not be home?

JB: I was supposed to be going home. Yeah. I was sending people home with five 01:04:00or six points. Hell I wasn't getting home like I should have been, but I could have wound up in the Japanese war. So I done alright by. By stopping and going by it.

CW: And this is the time when you met your wife while you were?

JB: Yeah, while I was in there I met my wife. Stick a chewing gum.

KC: What happened when you went on the bus?

JB: Pardon?

KC: What happened when you would go onto the bus with your SIS?

JB: Yeah. When I had my uniform on and I got on a streetcar or bus the German got all the way back away from me. Afraid of me. Why they was afraid of me, I don't know. I'm a very nice guy. I never gave anybody a hard time.

CW: What was your job while you're SIS? You're still just mail guard?

JB: Yeah, I was still good mail guard. One time I- one of the guards who was guarding mustard gas. You know what mustard gas is? They was guarding mustard gas and they didn't have any food. The darn fools went looking for food. They didn't know what they was supposed to do that one stays on as guard on the on a mustard gas and the other one goes out and hunts food. If that's what they had to do. They could have done without food. But anyhow the constabulary arrested him for a walking around town with a gun. We had at that time carbines and they 01:06:00arrested him for having a gun. I went there and I told him what the proper procedure was. You arrest two guards you replace two guards with your men. That's no problem. Anybody with any sense would know that's what you do. But they took him and arrested him. When I got there they already turned him loose. And I showed that book. Man had made me king, something. And it was really to me nothing. Now when I really did go home with my wife. I got all the way to the coast. And I was going to keep that book to brag about it or something, just as a keepsake. And lieutenant from the outfit come all the way to the coast and got it. Took it away from me. Take it away, he asked for it and I gave it to him. But it was important I guess. But hell, I didn't see nothing so important. The one time used those guys was taken off of a mail guard. Just that one time is the only time I ever used it.

CW: So how long were you in Europe before you and Dina finally went back to the States?

JB: Well let's see. We got married four months. We was married and then four 01:08:00months and then she got pregnant and at eight eight months she had the baby. Must have been at least two years. I was here in Germany. As SIS, of course SIS as far as I was concerned was nothing.

CW: Was Dina excited about coming back to the states?

JB: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I bought her a washing machine, a roller washing machine. Man she had she had to write a letter home to tell her people I bought her a washing machine.

CW: How was her English?

JB: Fare. Do you remember how she spoke?

KC: Well. I mean, mom spoke very good of course when I was born. But she could speak three languages.

CW: Right.

KC: German, Dutch, and now English

JB: And profanity.

KC: Yeah.

JB: She could speak that too.

CW: So do you come back to Columbus then?

JB: Yeah yeah yeah. I came back but I still had a year. No, I would say four munths. I still had four months in the Army. And she went to where Mom was. And I had to grow back toi the Army.

KC: Where did you go back to?

JB: Pardon?

KC: Where did you go back to? Mom came to Columbus. Where did you had to go to finish out the army?

JB: Back to New Jersey. I went back to New Jersey. I would say we had another 01:10:00four months to serve. In the army before I actually got out.

KC: Dad reenlisted to go back to go get my mother.

JB: You had to if you were going to stay with her.

KC: How long were you in the army?

JB: Five years, nine months, and 13 days. That's what I count. I don't know what somebody else counts.

CW: So what did you do in New Jersey to finish out your time?

JB: I was painting signs. That's all I was doing.

CW: Just finishing that last four months?

JB: Yeah. Yeah. Just painting signs. No need. There was a need I guess in replacement depots. Repo depo we called them. In the replacement depot they found something for you to do and it was supposed to be for you to know where you are. And that's what I did. There maybe signs around here and the I painted or helped paint.

CW: So during this time was, did Dina stay with your mom or did you have to buy a house?

JB: Say it again.

CW: At this time while you're in New Jersey was Dina with your mom or did you buy a house?

JB: Yes. She was with mom and I was here whatever.

CW: You say your mom wasn't happy about much. Did she like Dina?

JB: As soon as she met Dina she loved her. But she didn't like the idea of me 01:12:00going back to Europe. I was already home. I should stay home. And she controlled me all the time. I never met a girl till I was in England. Held a girl I met.

CW: So when you got back to Columbus what did you do then for a job?

JB: The law said that the job I had before I went to go to the army they had to give it back to me.

KC: He worked at Federal Glass.

JB: I worked at the Federal Glass as a journeyman. As a...

KC: Mold maker.

JB: Mold maker.

CW: Was that where your father worked?

JB: Apprentice mold maker. Yeah my dad worked there, yeah. And that's where I worked after, before I went to the army so the Federal Glass. If the job was still there they had to give it back to me. They gave me a year on the apprectice... on the mold maker. They gave me a year. Hell, you didn't need that much time to be a mold maker.

CW: How long just did you work at Federal Glass?

JB: Oh my.

KC: Until he's 57 years old. That's when they closed.

JB: Yeah 57.

KC: o it was from 17, and then the war then 57.

JB: But I couldn't tell you a whole lot about the war. I forgot it. A lot of 01:14:00what we did. But all we did was destroy. With a tank and the shells we shot all we did was destroy, kill people.

CW: Did you stay in touch with any of the guys you served with?

JB: No. Did I?

KC: Not that I know of.

JB: No.

KC: Was [Warren?] guy in Wisconsin. Who was he to you? Nobody?

JB: No. He was on another tank.

KC: So yes.

JB: About the only guy you knew was the seven guys on the tank. That's about all you knew. And one would get killed and they'd put another one on if they had him.

CW: I assume you didn't stay in touch with Stanger.

JB: No. No, I didn't. Didn't stay in touch with him. He was a kind of a guy that shells were flying and you're shooting at somebody and he'd say, hey here you see got tomatoes for a dollar a pound or something. Who in the hell cares what the tomatoes back in the United States. Of course when these guys was shooting at us. That was the type of a guy he was. An then at that fight with that thing. He spent his time watching the fight instead of listening to the phone.

KC: Now Burton, he's the guy that jumped on top of you while you guys are still being shelled.

JB: Yeah.

KC: Didn't he?

JB: Yeah.

KC: And he took care of dad, when dad was wounded.

JB: Well he should have got in a hole and stayed in it. You don't. If you were wounded the hell with you. Until the shellings over with. That's the way it was. When you die we take all your clothing, put it out in the middle of the field, and what's out there is yours if you need it.

KC: But Burton came over to help you when you got wounded.

JB: Hopeful [Old Bill?] Burton. Yeah. Well, Old Bill Burton was one who was in that fight and I didn't turn him in for a patch and so he was probably trying to help out, you know and something like that. He figured he owed me a little bit or something. I don't know but Burton was a pretty nice guy after. He was always a nice guy. Stanger and my driver was a 19 year man and I was a draftee and he didn't like draftees. And I was a sergeant and he was a private. And he didn't like that at all. Me, I didn't ecare what you was, do your job. That's all I cared about.

CW: Let me ask you two more questions then or we'll wrap it up.

JB: Okay.

CW: I got another appointment coming in here soon so. I could probably pick your mind, brain all day but. Did you join any veterans groups after you left the Army.

JB: Let's see did I. Not for a while. I think I. No, I didn't join any thing. I was so busy trying to establish myself. If I could I built a garden and it was for food. And that's what I had to do. I had to get some money.

KC: To buy a house?

JB: I bought a house and Obetz run me out so I bought another house. The man come down. he said I had to get rid o f the chickens. So I wrung the necks of the chickens and about two or three days later he said. You don't have to get rid of the chickens. I said, how am I going to put their heads back on? He said, that's your problem.

CW: So one last question. When you look back at the war is there one memory that you think of more often than others.

JB: It was all hell. It was all hell and they were shooting at me. I never cared for any of it. And I think you would probably figured the same thing. When they're shooting at you it's hell.